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"Quiet Contemplation for Extroverts: A How-To Guide to Sitting the Fuck Still For an Hour" I'm fine as I am as an introvert, thank you very much. Maybe we're

"Quiet Contemplation for Extroverts: A How-To Guide to Sitting the Fuck Still For an Hour" I'm fine as I am as an introvert, thank you very much. Maybe we're not the only ones who need to be more accommodating of the world?

chefandy 3y ago
So... in the context of career networking... Everybody should just mind their business and leave each other alone?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Lutger 3y ago
  Nah, the mirror image of this would probably be a meetup for management type folks, with talks praising the efficacy of NOT interrupting your team when doing work requiring deep attention, let them only come to the office when it is really useful, stop doing meetings, etc.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Extroverted developers suffer from interrupts just as much as introverted developers, and I've been interrupted numerous times by very introverted managers. This is a matter of understanding developer workflows and uniquely severe context switching penalty-- not a difference between introverts and extroverts.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I just switched jobs from an extroverted manager to an introverted one, and the difference is night and day. My new manager doesn't feel the need to talk to me except for at scheduled times or if I reach out to him. Outside of those windows, I'm free to focus 100%. I don't think he is doing it on purpose, it's just the most natural way for him to act. My previous manager couldn't stay in his seat for more than two hours at a time without coming over and talking to me—sometimes about work, but often about politics or whatever else was on his mind. He could have used a training session along the lines of what OP proposes.
      - chefandy 3y ago
        I worked with several extroverted managers (attorneys) who understood that uninterrupted dev time was important without me needing to prompt them, and had several others, both introverted and extroverted, that just insisted on my attention whenever it was most convenient for them. While it's quite likely that among two people who lack boundaries, an extroverted manager (also not the same as not being able to sit still, which is more likely something akin to ADHD Impulsive) would be more likely to be annoying about it, but the problem is lacking boundaries and self-control in the workplace, not their social compulsions.
- HumblyTossed 3y ago
  "... For an hour"
  - yard2010 3y ago
    And then what?
    - hungryforcodes 3y ago
      Best to start somewhere...
- acuozzo 3y ago
  The entire concept of career networking is rooted in expanding access to nepotism and is a poor substitute for an objective evaluation of merits. With that being said, it obviously has value since nepotism won't be going away anytime soon. What OP likely isn't aware of is the works published over the past 30+ years for managers/owners on how to relate to their probably-introverted programmer employees.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Sure if I meet an executive at a golf course and after a few drinks at the clubhouse, he decides I should get a job he just opened, that's nepotism. But I've been an utter outsider in every industry I've come across, and did not have any family or social connections in any relevant professional or academic circle. If I'm at a conference and jibe with someone in between panels over a common professional perspective, and they later forward me a job opening to apply to within their organization, it's a pretty big stretch to call that nepotism. It's not like you just get dropped in that job without proving your merit. It seems to me that nepotism happens within or through relationships or social/class structures that already exist-- not among people who develop professional relationships outside of their workplaces. It's a pretty huge stretch to say that conferences or any other kind of bona fide career networking facilitates nepotism more than they facilitate genuine professional relationships.
  - dasil003 3y ago
    This is an overly cynical take. It’s not either/or. Meeting more people just means being exposed to more first hand information in both directions. It gives more surface area for serendipity to strike. It’s nice to imagine that all information about the job market would be available online for convenient index and search, but that’s just not the case. When it comes to understanding the culture in a company, theres no substitute for talking to someone on the inside. Similarly when you are a hiring manager, not every great candidate is going to apply or even have a LinkedIn profile. Now, I tend to agree that most things explicitly labeled “networking” feel tiresome and a bit forced, but there’s nothing about meeting people that means bypassing objective evaluation for hiring.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  More that it doesn't need to have a big emphasis on social skills or the people you know, but on merit and skills. Most software development jobs are already like that though, with both face to face interviews and take-home assignments. Some do whiteboard interviews, but I don't really get those because they're not representative of the job you will be expected to do - unless it's for a teaching position.
  - wood_spirit 3y ago
    The practical slot on the interview schedule is typically all there is to stop hopeless and BSing people from getting programming jobs and then being a hugely expensive mistake. If you sail through it and think there’s no point in the tech whiteboard section then that’s because it’s not aimed at filtering you out?
    - chefandy 3y ago
      That might have been the initial purpose of whiteboard challenges, but I don't think it usually works out like that. I can't speak for the person you're replying to, but most people I see who object to whiteboard interviews are upper-level developers that haven't needed to know any of the common whiteboard challenges off the top of their head-- like coding an efficient merge sort in C with proper memory management-- because it's rarely a useful skill in day-to-day work unless you're working with that stuff directly. The people who know that stuff are usually recent grads and people who grind leetcode-- all people who've worked to memorize whiteboard type trivia rather than honing more real-world-applicable coding skills.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    First, I'd draw a sharp distinction between social skills and extroversion. Even if you're not compelled to interact with people and guard the energy you expend on socializing, that doesn't mean you aren't good at it. Some of the most charming people I've met have been serious introverts. I hate grinding through DS&A stuff and will avoid doing so at all costs, but I can still do it. Just like some developers have to put in more effort than others when encountering complex DS&A and other 'hard' skills, some have to put in extra effort with the 'soft' skills-- but both are important parts of a complete professional skill set, and directly contribute to your overall merit. People understand that useful employees can be quiet and many even tolerate having to work a bit to get information out of them at meetings/code reviews/etc. But interacting with coworkers is part of our jobs, and if we always come across as aloof/arrogant/insecure/impatient/put-upon/avoidant/imperious or any other irritating way when interacting with coworkers, we're bad at that part of our jobs. Edit: To hammer the point home, a couple I'm friends with are IG/TikTok lifestyle influencers. They're both affable and engaging on-camera and in public social engagements, and incredibly naturally attractive. One has even appeared on national television. They have social skills far beyond what most particularly social people have. In their personal lives, they are still quite lovely, but are two of the most reserved, quiet, withdrawn, introverted, cerebral people I've ever encountered. They've cultivated fantastic social skills that they utilize as a professional tool even though it's anathema to their natural tendencies and how they comfortably live their off-camera lives.
jonathanlydall 3y ago
Nevertheless we live in a world where sometimes it’s people’s networking ability that allows them to be successful far more so than their skill alone would achieve. It may not be “fair”, but if we want to succeed in what is arguably the extroverts world, we unfortunately need to play the game too (at least to an extent) or we may find ourselves overlooked.
- SamPatt 3y ago
  It's also not fair to completely dismiss networking as just "something extroverts do" which carries no signal about skills. Most jobs benefit from having good people skills, communication skills, and being proactive. If you hit it off with someone at a networking event, they've more or less already checked off those boxes.

chefandy 3y ago

So... in the context of career networking... Everybody should just mind their business and leave each other alone?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Lutger 3y ago
Nah, the mirror image of this would probably be a meetup for management type folks, with talks praising the efficacy of NOT interrupting your team when doing work requiring deep attention, let them only come to the office when it is really useful, stop doing meetings, etc.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Extroverted developers suffer from interrupts just as much as introverted developers, and I've been interrupted numerous times by very introverted managers. This is a matter of understanding developer workflows and uniquely severe context switching penalty-- not a difference between introverts and extroverts.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I just switched jobs from an extroverted manager to an introverted one, and the difference is night and day. My new manager doesn't feel the need to talk to me except for at scheduled times or if I reach out to him. Outside of those windows, I'm free to focus 100%. I don't think he is doing it on purpose, it's just the most natural way for him to act. My previous manager couldn't stay in his seat for more than two hours at a time without coming over and talking to me—sometimes about work, but often about politics or whatever else was on his mind. He could have used a training session along the lines of what OP proposes.
    - chefandy 3y ago
      I worked with several extroverted managers (attorneys) who understood that uninterrupted dev time was important without me needing to prompt them, and had several others, both introverted and extroverted, that just insisted on my attention whenever it was most convenient for them. While it's quite likely that among two people who lack boundaries, an extroverted manager (also not the same as not being able to sit still, which is more likely something akin to ADHD Impulsive) would be more likely to be annoying about it, but the problem is lacking boundaries and self-control in the workplace, not their social compulsions.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
"... For an hour"
- yard2010 3y ago
  And then what?
  - hungryforcodes 3y ago
    Best to start somewhere...
acuozzo 3y ago
The entire concept of career networking is rooted in expanding access to nepotism and is a poor substitute for an objective evaluation of merits. With that being said, it obviously has value since nepotism won't be going away anytime soon. What OP likely isn't aware of is the works published over the past 30+ years for managers/owners on how to relate to their probably-introverted programmer employees.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Sure if I meet an executive at a golf course and after a few drinks at the clubhouse, he decides I should get a job he just opened, that's nepotism. But I've been an utter outsider in every industry I've come across, and did not have any family or social connections in any relevant professional or academic circle. If I'm at a conference and jibe with someone in between panels over a common professional perspective, and they later forward me a job opening to apply to within their organization, it's a pretty big stretch to call that nepotism. It's not like you just get dropped in that job without proving your merit. It seems to me that nepotism happens within or through relationships or social/class structures that already exist-- not among people who develop professional relationships outside of their workplaces. It's a pretty huge stretch to say that conferences or any other kind of bona fide career networking facilitates nepotism more than they facilitate genuine professional relationships.
- dasil003 3y ago
  This is an overly cynical take. It’s not either/or. Meeting more people just means being exposed to more first hand information in both directions. It gives more surface area for serendipity to strike. It’s nice to imagine that all information about the job market would be available online for convenient index and search, but that’s just not the case. When it comes to understanding the culture in a company, theres no substitute for talking to someone on the inside. Similarly when you are a hiring manager, not every great candidate is going to apply or even have a LinkedIn profile. Now, I tend to agree that most things explicitly labeled “networking” feel tiresome and a bit forced, but there’s nothing about meeting people that means bypassing objective evaluation for hiring.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
More that it doesn't need to have a big emphasis on social skills or the people you know, but on merit and skills. Most software development jobs are already like that though, with both face to face interviews and take-home assignments. Some do whiteboard interviews, but I don't really get those because they're not representative of the job you will be expected to do - unless it's for a teaching position.
- wood_spirit 3y ago
  The practical slot on the interview schedule is typically all there is to stop hopeless and BSing people from getting programming jobs and then being a hugely expensive mistake. If you sail through it and think there’s no point in the tech whiteboard section then that’s because it’s not aimed at filtering you out?
  - chefandy 3y ago
    That might have been the initial purpose of whiteboard challenges, but I don't think it usually works out like that. I can't speak for the person you're replying to, but most people I see who object to whiteboard interviews are upper-level developers that haven't needed to know any of the common whiteboard challenges off the top of their head-- like coding an efficient merge sort in C with proper memory management-- because it's rarely a useful skill in day-to-day work unless you're working with that stuff directly. The people who know that stuff are usually recent grads and people who grind leetcode-- all people who've worked to memorize whiteboard type trivia rather than honing more real-world-applicable coding skills.
- chefandy 3y ago
  First, I'd draw a sharp distinction between social skills and extroversion. Even if you're not compelled to interact with people and guard the energy you expend on socializing, that doesn't mean you aren't good at it. Some of the most charming people I've met have been serious introverts. I hate grinding through DS&A stuff and will avoid doing so at all costs, but I can still do it. Just like some developers have to put in more effort than others when encountering complex DS&A and other 'hard' skills, some have to put in extra effort with the 'soft' skills-- but both are important parts of a complete professional skill set, and directly contribute to your overall merit. People understand that useful employees can be quiet and many even tolerate having to work a bit to get information out of them at meetings/code reviews/etc. But interacting with coworkers is part of our jobs, and if we always come across as aloof/arrogant/insecure/impatient/put-upon/avoidant/imperious or any other irritating way when interacting with coworkers, we're bad at that part of our jobs. Edit: To hammer the point home, a couple I'm friends with are IG/TikTok lifestyle influencers. They're both affable and engaging on-camera and in public social engagements, and incredibly naturally attractive. One has even appeared on national television. They have social skills far beyond what most particularly social people have. In their personal lives, they are still quite lovely, but are two of the most reserved, quiet, withdrawn, introverted, cerebral people I've ever encountered. They've cultivated fantastic social skills that they utilize as a professional tool even though it's anathema to their natural tendencies and how they comfortably live their off-camera lives.

jonathanlydall 3y ago

Nevertheless we live in a world where sometimes it’s people’s networking ability that allows them to be successful far more so than their skill alone would achieve. It may not be “fair”, but if we want to succeed in what is arguably the extroverts world, we unfortunately need to play the game too (at least to an extent) or we may find ourselves overlooked.

SamPatt 3y ago
It's also not fair to completely dismiss networking as just "something extroverts do" which carries no signal about skills. Most jobs benefit from having good people skills, communication skills, and being proactive. If you hit it off with someone at a networking event, they've more or less already checked off those boxes.