4 ms·

I think extroversion and introversion are just orthogonal skill sets. The solution can simply be “get better at extroversion.” For instance, small talk. You ma

by Tycho 3y ago

I think extroversion and introversion are just orthogonal skill sets. The solution can simply be “get better at extroversion.” For instance, small talk. You may style yourself as someone too intellectual to be entertained by small talk, and profess to be terrible at making small talk. This is to misunderstand the value proposition of small talk, which is to establish trust and rapport with strangers before you commit to sharing any high value information. To be fair the value of social customs are often not grokked even where they are followed and are effective. But if you need a reason for everything, figure it out. Also, confidence. This is simply a function of how positively you expect others to receive your presence/engagement. People who are quiet and taciturn in one setting will often be charismatic and open in another setting where they know the audience. Realistically appraise why others might react positively to you, and work on being able to deliver that value. The confidence will flow naturally from there.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
What you describe has nothing to do with introversion or extroversion. Those are social skills and, yes, they're learnable. My favorite book on the subject is superhuman social skills by Tynan. He's an introvert. If you're curious, Introversion and Extroversion are characterized by different brain chemistry. Introverts make more heavy use of the acetylcholine pathways in the brain and Extroverts make more heavy use of the dopamine/adrenaline pathways in the brain. A more detailed analysis can be found here: https://musingsonmormonism.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/easily-the-most-fascintaing-and-illuminating-comparison-of-introversion-and-extroversion-ive-ever-seen/ https://musingsonmormonism.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/easily-t...
- Tycho 3y ago
  When you exercise different skills, your brain activity changes, yes. Doesn’t mean these are real categories. Brain activity of a tennis player will be different from the brain activity of a concert pianist.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - darkerside 3y ago
    Someone posted and deleted in response to this on how we lose neural plasticity as we age. I tried to comment in response, but it was deleted already. Since I have this written up, I'll share it here. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, you can lean on the skills you have acquired and be successful. Plasticity is no longer required. But look at the many examples of people who have suffered brain damage, and yet, the brain was able to route around it, form new pathways, and reattain functionality in seemingly impossible circumstances. Why would we expect that people are unable to form new neural pathways on their own, even if most people tend not to? Furthermore, what good does it do to repeat this truism, thereby discouraging the very behaviors that are most needed to engender neural plasticity?
    - Tycho 3y ago
      Also, the linked article above didn’t mention anything about plasticity.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  AH does this explain drinking then "Alcohol also acts on at least some of these receptors, enhancing the function of some nAChR subtypes and inhibiting the activity of others"
msp26 3y ago
> The solution can simply be “get better at extroversion.” I agree completely as a former shut-in. I just forced myself to be as extroverted as possible for a while until it came more naturally. I still prefer to be an introvert and have a 'social battery' limit but now I actually understand socialization and can start/direct conversations for my own goals/enjoyment. It was difficult in the beginning but I just thought a lot about the words I and others used: how they were delivered, and the underlying motivation behind them (even if it was trivial small talk).
twobitshifter 3y ago
Right there’s nothing preventing introverts from being among the most sociable people. Obama is considered an introvert and so is Gandhi. Both were able to build enormous energy and lead others through their personalities and speech. I don’t however think it needs to be a goal that leads to being good at small talk. That really comes from agreeableness which is high among some introverts but absent in others. It’s another big 5 personality trait. The idea that small talk is a means to an end is needed if the person is lower on agreeableness and is more critical.
basscomm 3y ago
> I think extroversion and introversion are just orthogonal skill sets. The solution can simply be “get better at extroversion.” No. Introversion and extroversion aren't skills, they're things that you are. You might as well say that the solution to being short is to just 'get better at being tall'. It doesn't work that way. Introversion is not shyness. Introversion is not social anxiety. Introversion means that you expend energy when you deal with other people, and extroverts gain energy when dealing with other people. I'm introverted by nature. I function perfectly well in social situations. I can do small talk, I can give presentations, the whole bit. But doing those things mentally wears me out. The bigger the group I'm dealing with is, the faster I get drained, and once my energy is drained I have to get some time away from the group to recharge. Extroverts are the opposite. Their mental batteries get drained by being alone, and they get charged up via social interactions.
- Tycho 3y ago
  “Energy”, “mental batteries” - these are entirely made up concepts. Any sort of activity is tiring - it is especially tiring if you aren’t very good at it, if you have to make a conscious effort rather than being so competent that it’s “second nature.”
  - basscomm 3y ago
    > “Energy”, “mental batteries” - these are entirely made up concepts. Close. They're abstractions that I used to describe my experiences. I used them because I'm not trained in psychology and the analogies are close enough. > Any sort of activity is tiring - it is especially tiring if you aren’t very good at it, if you have to make a conscious effort rather than being so competent that it’s “second nature.” Correct. That has nothing to do with introversion, however. Being socially awkward doesn't (necessarily) mean that you're introverted. Introversion isn't something that can be changed with practice. Introversion can't be changed at all. Extroverts usually don't believe this. Note: I'm not using words 'improved' or 'overcome' here. Those words would imply that introversion is a problem that needs fixing or mitigating. It is not. It's a part of the rich tapestry of human existence.
hungryforcodes 3y ago
No this has nothing to do with introversion. It has nothing to do with social skills or confidence. Most introverts are actually quite charming one on one. For introverts social contact is simply EXHAUSTING. So there is a high cost to every social interaction. Hence why they avoid parties, or responding to your messages or any of the other things that extorverts seem to think are so "fun". I wish extroverts would understand this...
- Tycho 3y ago
  Yes, I am aware of the pop psychology ideas. I just don’t see why I should believe them. Doing things that you aren’t good at, that you haven’t effectively practiced, is tiring. If you aren’t an experienced driver, for instance, a lengthy, unfamiliar journey will feel exhausting. Once you get good, it’s second nature, and you don’t bat an eyelid. It’s pretty simple. You don’t need to invent this concept about special types of people who are “tired” by social contact.
  - hungryforcodes 3y ago
    Introverts are generally analytical and try to take in everything and understand it. Extroverts not so much, they just kind of often do this stream of consciousness thing. So introverts don't really get tired because they lack social skills and are trying -- but because that it takes alot of mental effort to continuously integrate all this new information. If what you were saying is true then introverts would be less introverted over time as they practiced social skills but the opposite is often true. Also if people tell you they are "tired" by social contact -- there isn't much you can do about it. Whether you believe it or not makes absolutely no difference to introverts. :)

by Tycho 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago

What you describe has nothing to do with introversion or extroversion. Those are social skills and, yes, they're learnable. My favorite book on the subject is superhuman social skills by Tynan. He's an introvert. If you're curious, Introversion and Extroversion are characterized by different brain chemistry. Introverts make more heavy use of the acetylcholine pathways in the brain and Extroverts make more heavy use of the dopamine/adrenaline pathways in the brain. A more detailed analysis can be found here: https://musingsonmormonism.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/easily-the-most-fascintaing-and-illuminating-comparison-of-introversion-and-extroversion-ive-ever-seen/ https://musingsonmormonism.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/easily-t...

Tycho 3y ago
When you exercise different skills, your brain activity changes, yes. Doesn’t mean these are real categories. Brain activity of a tennis player will be different from the brain activity of a concert pianist.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- darkerside 3y ago
  Someone posted and deleted in response to this on how we lose neural plasticity as we age. I tried to comment in response, but it was deleted already. Since I have this written up, I'll share it here. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yes, you can lean on the skills you have acquired and be successful. Plasticity is no longer required. But look at the many examples of people who have suffered brain damage, and yet, the brain was able to route around it, form new pathways, and reattain functionality in seemingly impossible circumstances. Why would we expect that people are unable to form new neural pathways on their own, even if most people tend not to? Furthermore, what good does it do to repeat this truism, thereby discouraging the very behaviors that are most needed to engender neural plasticity?
  - Tycho 3y ago
    Also, the linked article above didn’t mention anything about plasticity.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
AH does this explain drinking then "Alcohol also acts on at least some of these receptors, enhancing the function of some nAChR subtypes and inhibiting the activity of others"

msp26 3y ago

> The solution can simply be “get better at extroversion.” I agree completely as a former shut-in. I just forced myself to be as extroverted as possible for a while until it came more naturally. I still prefer to be an introvert and have a 'social battery' limit but now I actually understand socialization and can start/direct conversations for my own goals/enjoyment. It was difficult in the beginning but I just thought a lot about the words I and others used: how they were delivered, and the underlying motivation behind them (even if it was trivial small talk).

twobitshifter 3y ago

Right there’s nothing preventing introverts from being among the most sociable people. Obama is considered an introvert and so is Gandhi. Both were able to build enormous energy and lead others through their personalities and speech. I don’t however think it needs to be a goal that leads to being good at small talk. That really comes from agreeableness which is high among some introverts but absent in others. It’s another big 5 personality trait. The idea that small talk is a means to an end is needed if the person is lower on agreeableness and is more critical.

basscomm 3y ago

> I think extroversion and introversion are just orthogonal skill sets. The solution can simply be “get better at extroversion.” No. Introversion and extroversion aren't skills, they're things that you are. You might as well say that the solution to being short is to just 'get better at being tall'. It doesn't work that way. Introversion is not shyness. Introversion is not social anxiety. Introversion means that you expend energy when you deal with other people, and extroverts gain energy when dealing with other people. I'm introverted by nature. I function perfectly well in social situations. I can do small talk, I can give presentations, the whole bit. But doing those things mentally wears me out. The bigger the group I'm dealing with is, the faster I get drained, and once my energy is drained I have to get some time away from the group to recharge. Extroverts are the opposite. Their mental batteries get drained by being alone, and they get charged up via social interactions.

Tycho 3y ago
“Energy”, “mental batteries” - these are entirely made up concepts. Any sort of activity is tiring - it is especially tiring if you aren’t very good at it, if you have to make a conscious effort rather than being so competent that it’s “second nature.”
- basscomm 3y ago
  > “Energy”, “mental batteries” - these are entirely made up concepts. Close. They're abstractions that I used to describe my experiences. I used them because I'm not trained in psychology and the analogies are close enough. > Any sort of activity is tiring - it is especially tiring if you aren’t very good at it, if you have to make a conscious effort rather than being so competent that it’s “second nature.” Correct. That has nothing to do with introversion, however. Being socially awkward doesn't (necessarily) mean that you're introverted. Introversion isn't something that can be changed with practice. Introversion can't be changed at all. Extroverts usually don't believe this. Note: I'm not using words 'improved' or 'overcome' here. Those words would imply that introversion is a problem that needs fixing or mitigating. It is not. It's a part of the rich tapestry of human existence.

hungryforcodes 3y ago

No this has nothing to do with introversion. It has nothing to do with social skills or confidence. Most introverts are actually quite charming one on one. For introverts social contact is simply EXHAUSTING. So there is a high cost to every social interaction. Hence why they avoid parties, or responding to your messages or any of the other things that extorverts seem to think are so "fun". I wish extroverts would understand this...

Tycho 3y ago
Yes, I am aware of the pop psychology ideas. I just don’t see why I should believe them. Doing things that you aren’t good at, that you haven’t effectively practiced, is tiring. If you aren’t an experienced driver, for instance, a lengthy, unfamiliar journey will feel exhausting. Once you get good, it’s second nature, and you don’t bat an eyelid. It’s pretty simple. You don’t need to invent this concept about special types of people who are “tired” by social contact.
- hungryforcodes 3y ago
  Introverts are generally analytical and try to take in everything and understand it. Extroverts not so much, they just kind of often do this stream of consciousness thing. So introverts don't really get tired because they lack social skills and are trying -- but because that it takes alot of mental effort to continuously integrate all this new information. If what you were saying is true then introverts would be less introverted over time as they practiced social skills but the opposite is often true. Also if people tell you they are "tired" by social contact -- there isn't much you can do about it. Whether you believe it or not makes absolutely no difference to introverts. :)