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Nope. It’s eschatological Christians who back Israel. Has nothing to do with protecting Jews and everything to do with evangelical Christians’ end times prophec

Nope. It’s eschatological Christians who back Israel. Has nothing to do with protecting Jews and everything to do with evangelical Christians’ end times prophecy. The world’s largest military has made decades of foreign policy decisions in accordance with these people’s doomsday fetish.

richbell 3y ago
I'm not sure how you can definitively say "nope". It could just as easily be both, or a third reason.
- SauciestGNU 3y ago
  Yeah I'm not sure about "nope", but I certainly think it's a mistake to assume Jewish people support Israeli government policies.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    It’s also a mistake to think the current administration’s White House staffers set decades of defense and foreign aid policy.
    - SenAnder 3y ago
      You seem keen on implying this is limited to "the current administration's staff", but that's just what we happen to have data on. Unless proven otherwise, it's reasonable to assume this over-representation is the rule, not the exception that applies only to the current admin's staff. To support this, see my other comment showing the Federal Reserve chair and political donors exhibit the same over-representation (the donor data is recent, but the Fed chair is since 1970, so it's unlikely this is a new thing that suddenly came out of nowhere): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37465220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37465220 It's not limited to the staff either - of the 26 cabinet positions (including president and vice president) in the Biden White House, 7 are held by Jews (2.4% of US population), and just 6 by gentile Whites (55% of US). One of those 6 is Joe Biden himself, and all 3 of his children married Jews. Sources: https://www.thejc.com/news/world/joe-biden-s-very-jewish-family-1.508420 https://www.thejc.com/news/world/joe-biden-s-very-jewish-fam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Joe_Biden#Cabinet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Joe_Biden#Cabine...
      - ethanbond 3y ago
        > You seem keen on implying this is limited to "the current administration's staff", but that's just what we happen to have data on. Unless proven otherwise, it's reasonable to assume this over-representation is the rule So this prevalence is an aberration compared to the base rate in the population, and therefore this aberration should be presumed to be the norm? Interesting approach.
- llamaimperative 3y ago
  You can definitively say “nope” by looking at where the unquestioned US policy support of Israel comes from. It comes from the evangelical right wing in the GOP. They are not fans of Jews per se. They are fans of going to heaven and believe that Israel is a key ingredient for doing that (when the rest of us get slaughtered in a holy war). When did 34% of the current White House staffers become responsible for decades of US foreign policy?
  - stareatgoats 3y ago
    > They are fans of going to heaven I can sympathize, heaven seems at least better than the other place. What I don't understand is how eschatological (which are essentially fatalistic) beliefs translate into support for Israel. In a world governed by fate it doesn't matter what you do, it's all predetermined anyway. Which seems to align more with the core Christian teachings: we should not judge (because no-one is essentially free from their fatefully determined destiny). I could be wrong.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Because broad swaths of US Evangelicals believe that Israel needs to be "re-established" for Jesus to return so there can be a holy war. No I am not kidding. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/h...) 79% of US Christians believe Jesus will have a second coming. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/04/09/christians-views-on-the-return-of-christ/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/04/09/christians-v... The second coming of Jesus is not for fun times. It's for war that kills ~everyone except the true believers, who then get infinite utopia. 4 in 10 Americans and about half of US Christians overall believe we are living "in the end times," and two thirds of "highly religious" adults. I.e. we are approaching that second coming/holy war. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/11/17/how-religion-intersects-with-americans-views-on-the-environment/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/11/17/how-religion... Combine that with the fact that US Congress is 90% Christian –– dramatically more so than the US public –– and a pretty alarming decision-making environment emerges. https://www.axios.com/2023/04/23/lawmakers-more-religious-general-public https://www.axios.com/2023/04/23/lawmakers-more-religious-ge...
- acdha 3y ago
  I agree with the person you’re replying to: there are certainly plenty of conservative Americans Jews even if they’re well in the minority (roughly a third) but there aren’t enough political districts where those numbers are decisive to explain the political lock and the “back Israel to the hilt” voices overwhelmingly tend not to be those districts but ones loaded with evangelical Christians. This makes sense when you remember why they care so much: their interpretation of the Bible holds that the end times they’re looking forward to will begin with a war involving Israel. They are not looking for peace or long-term happiness, and support any policy which increases the odds of a war. I remember them being very excited by the Gulf War and various points in the Iraq war where it seemed like someone might attack Israel because they’re basically thinking that’s their ticket to heaven showing up.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Exactly right! This belief system is so unbelievably appalling to secular folks that they literally cannot believe it. But this is what huge numbers of Americans, and a very powerful political constituency actually believe.
deleted 3y ago
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SenAnder 3y ago
Those Christians are also against abortion and homosexuality, but they've had far less success on those topics - school prayer was removed, and replaced with LGBT flags.
- acdha 3y ago
  Uh, did you miss the last couple of years where they got a huge ruling allowing them to criminalize abortion, protect religious activities by public employees on the job, laws to ban books, and have been successfully using threats of terrorism to shut down LGBQT events? The only reason there isn’t mandatory school prayer is because they’d have to agree on whose version to enshrine.
  - SenAnder 3y ago
    Their success in these areas is at best contested and limited - abortion is legal in the vast majority of US states [1] and the US army officially endorses LGBT pride parades [2,3]. It is not remotely comparable to the decades long, unquestioned bipartisan support of Israel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law_in_the_United_States_by_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law_in_the_United_Sta... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/us-armed-forces-color-guard-to-march-in-gay-pride-parade-in-dc-called-a-first-nationwide/2014/06/05/32955202-ec26-11e3-b98c-72cef4a00499_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/us-armed-fo... [3] https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/06/heres-how-us-military-kicked-off-pride-month-on-social-media-today/ https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/06/heres-how-us-milita...
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Sorry is the suggestion here that if a certain constituency is not successful across all of its agenda items, then it surely couldn't be behind the success of some of its agenda items?
  - SenAnder 3y ago
    No. The suggestion is that there is a reason for this variance of success. The reason being that they share this agenda item with another group, explaining why they triumph here while they have only middling success elsewhere. In your own words: We don’t really need to look for a single cause. All of these things are happening and interacting with each other. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446682 It's a simple concept - you understood it perfectly well when the topic was different. Why do you suddenly find it hard to grasp?

richbell 3y ago

I'm not sure how you can definitively say "nope". It could just as easily be both, or a third reason.

SauciestGNU 3y ago
Yeah I'm not sure about "nope", but I certainly think it's a mistake to assume Jewish people support Israeli government policies.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  It’s also a mistake to think the current administration’s White House staffers set decades of defense and foreign aid policy.
  - SenAnder 3y ago
    You seem keen on implying this is limited to "the current administration's staff", but that's just what we happen to have data on. Unless proven otherwise, it's reasonable to assume this over-representation is the rule, not the exception that applies only to the current admin's staff. To support this, see my other comment showing the Federal Reserve chair and political donors exhibit the same over-representation (the donor data is recent, but the Fed chair is since 1970, so it's unlikely this is a new thing that suddenly came out of nowhere): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37465220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37465220 It's not limited to the staff either - of the 26 cabinet positions (including president and vice president) in the Biden White House, 7 are held by Jews (2.4% of US population), and just 6 by gentile Whites (55% of US). One of those 6 is Joe Biden himself, and all 3 of his children married Jews. Sources: https://www.thejc.com/news/world/joe-biden-s-very-jewish-family-1.508420 https://www.thejc.com/news/world/joe-biden-s-very-jewish-fam... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Joe_Biden#Cabinet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Joe_Biden#Cabine...
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      > You seem keen on implying this is limited to "the current administration's staff", but that's just what we happen to have data on. Unless proven otherwise, it's reasonable to assume this over-representation is the rule So this prevalence is an aberration compared to the base rate in the population, and therefore this aberration should be presumed to be the norm? Interesting approach.
llamaimperative 3y ago
You can definitively say “nope” by looking at where the unquestioned US policy support of Israel comes from. It comes from the evangelical right wing in the GOP. They are not fans of Jews per se. They are fans of going to heaven and believe that Israel is a key ingredient for doing that (when the rest of us get slaughtered in a holy war). When did 34% of the current White House staffers become responsible for decades of US foreign policy?
- stareatgoats 3y ago
  > They are fans of going to heaven I can sympathize, heaven seems at least better than the other place. What I don't understand is how eschatological (which are essentially fatalistic) beliefs translate into support for Israel. In a world governed by fate it doesn't matter what you do, it's all predetermined anyway. Which seems to align more with the core Christian teachings: we should not judge (because no-one is essentially free from their fatefully determined destiny). I could be wrong.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Because broad swaths of US Evangelicals believe that Israel needs to be "re-established" for Jesus to return so there can be a holy war. No I am not kidding. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/h...) 79% of US Christians believe Jesus will have a second coming. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/04/09/christians-views-on-the-return-of-christ/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/04/09/christians-v... The second coming of Jesus is not for fun times. It's for war that kills ~everyone except the true believers, who then get infinite utopia. 4 in 10 Americans and about half of US Christians overall believe we are living "in the end times," and two thirds of "highly religious" adults. I.e. we are approaching that second coming/holy war. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/11/17/how-religion-intersects-with-americans-views-on-the-environment/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/11/17/how-religion... Combine that with the fact that US Congress is 90% Christian –– dramatically more so than the US public –– and a pretty alarming decision-making environment emerges. https://www.axios.com/2023/04/23/lawmakers-more-religious-general-public https://www.axios.com/2023/04/23/lawmakers-more-religious-ge...
acdha 3y ago
I agree with the person you’re replying to: there are certainly plenty of conservative Americans Jews even if they’re well in the minority (roughly a third) but there aren’t enough political districts where those numbers are decisive to explain the political lock and the “back Israel to the hilt” voices overwhelmingly tend not to be those districts but ones loaded with evangelical Christians. This makes sense when you remember why they care so much: their interpretation of the Bible holds that the end times they’re looking forward to will begin with a war involving Israel. They are not looking for peace or long-term happiness, and support any policy which increases the odds of a war. I remember them being very excited by the Gulf War and various points in the Iraq war where it seemed like someone might attack Israel because they’re basically thinking that’s their ticket to heaven showing up.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Exactly right! This belief system is so unbelievably appalling to secular folks that they literally cannot believe it. But this is what huge numbers of Americans, and a very powerful political constituency actually believe.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

SenAnder 3y ago

Those Christians are also against abortion and homosexuality, but they've had far less success on those topics - school prayer was removed, and replaced with LGBT flags.

acdha 3y ago
Uh, did you miss the last couple of years where they got a huge ruling allowing them to criminalize abortion, protect religious activities by public employees on the job, laws to ban books, and have been successfully using threats of terrorism to shut down LGBQT events? The only reason there isn’t mandatory school prayer is because they’d have to agree on whose version to enshrine.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  Their success in these areas is at best contested and limited - abortion is legal in the vast majority of US states [1] and the US army officially endorses LGBT pride parades [2,3]. It is not remotely comparable to the decades long, unquestioned bipartisan support of Israel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law_in_the_United_States_by_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law_in_the_United_Sta... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/us-armed-forces-color-guard-to-march-in-gay-pride-parade-in-dc-called-a-first-nationwide/2014/06/05/32955202-ec26-11e3-b98c-72cef4a00499_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/us-armed-fo... [3] https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/06/heres-how-us-military-kicked-off-pride-month-on-social-media-today/ https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/06/heres-how-us-milita...
ethanbond 3y ago
Sorry is the suggestion here that if a certain constituency is not successful across all of its agenda items, then it surely couldn't be behind the success of some of its agenda items?
- SenAnder 3y ago
  No. The suggestion is that there is a reason for this variance of success. The reason being that they share this agenda item with another group, explaining why they triumph here while they have only middling success elsewhere. In your own words: We don’t really need to look for a single cause. All of these things are happening and interacting with each other. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446682 It's a simple concept - you understood it perfectly well when the topic was different. Why do you suddenly find it hard to grasp?