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His grave, the shrine: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910...

by pydry 3y ago

His grave, the shrine: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910... 10% of Israelis consider him a national hero, according to Israeli polls: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 The Minister for National Security Ben Gvir had a portrait of Baruch in his living room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir I'd encourage anybody who visits Israel to go and see Kiryat Arba in the west bank settlement where Goldstein lived and where he committed his shooting spree, because it puts his act into context. It's a heavily militarized ethnically cleansed enclave of about 7,500 Israelis in the center of the second largest Palestinian west bank city - Hebron. Unlike other settlements they often live in the same buildings - in the floors above Palestinians that was confiscated from them. There is netting to trap the trash that they throw down on the citizens "beneath" them as guard in guard towers look on, pointing guns: https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 It's the most visible symbol of the kind of racism American supporters of Israel endorse, some of whom are, sadly, all too evident even in this thread.

weatherlite 3y ago
Most of his grave was ruined by the Israeli government, and you'll find no parliament members in Israel who publicly endorses Goldstein. None, not even the most radical right extremists in the current government. Privately some radical Israeli politicians like Itamar Ben Gvir probably like what Goldstein did but a) they're in the minority b) they're not giving any publicity to their private thoughts Palestinian terrorists however get a rockstar status in Palestinian society including streets named after them and a monthly salary given by the PLO if they're imprisoned.
edanm 3y ago
It's terrible that anyone supports any terrorist like Goldstein. It's even more terrible that Ben Gvir was elected, given his views. Though just for context, there is a huge political fight within Israel, partially because of people like Ben Gvir. It's not the whole country supporting this nonsense. And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many, I imagine it's comparable to similar numbers in other countries for similar-ish situations. Still terrible, but not exactly proof that the country is especially racist. (Though to be fair, it's not like there's zero racism in Israel, though I think it's less about race and more about the national situation/issues around the Palestinians. I don't think it makes sense to think about the Israeli situation in the same way one would think about the racism in the States, for example.)
- pydry 3y ago
  >And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. 10% is enough to presume that the illegalization of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions in America is an explicitly pro-racist law. It is possible to make an accusation of anti-semitism that isn't motivated by racism. It's just much rarer than it should be.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. I'm really trying to parse your logic, and failing. If I understand it, your chain of reasoning is: 1. Someone "defends Israel". 2. The way they do it in this specific case is by saying the other person is anti-semitic. 3. Because some people in Israel think fairly attrocious things and are racist, this implies that any defense of Israel is implicitly a defense of racism, therefore making the defender racist. Is that the chain here? Basically, you can't defend a country in which 10% of people are racist, without yourself being racist? If so, that chain of reasoning is pretty ridiculous. That's like someone saying they like the US, and you deciding they are racist, because in a 2013 poll, 17% of Americans were against interracial marriage. It's a huge and nonsensical logical leap to go from "some action that country X has done is OK" to "I therefore support what any subset, even as small as 10% of the country, thinks".

by pydry 3y ago

weatherlite 3y ago

Most of his grave was ruined by the Israeli government, and you'll find no parliament members in Israel who publicly endorses Goldstein. None, not even the most radical right extremists in the current government. Privately some radical Israeli politicians like Itamar Ben Gvir probably like what Goldstein did but a) they're in the minority b) they're not giving any publicity to their private thoughts Palestinian terrorists however get a rockstar status in Palestinian society including streets named after them and a monthly salary given by the PLO if they're imprisoned.

edanm 3y ago

It's terrible that anyone supports any terrorist like Goldstein. It's even more terrible that Ben Gvir was elected, given his views. Though just for context, there is a huge political fight within Israel, partially because of people like Ben Gvir. It's not the whole country supporting this nonsense. And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many, I imagine it's comparable to similar numbers in other countries for similar-ish situations. Still terrible, but not exactly proof that the country is especially racist. (Though to be fair, it's not like there's zero racism in Israel, though I think it's less about race and more about the national situation/issues around the Palestinians. I don't think it makes sense to think about the Israeli situation in the same way one would think about the racism in the States, for example.)

pydry 3y ago
>And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. 10% is enough to presume that the illegalization of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions in America is an explicitly pro-racist law. It is possible to make an accusation of anti-semitism that isn't motivated by racism. It's just much rarer than it should be.
- edanm 3y ago
  > 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. I'm really trying to parse your logic, and failing. If I understand it, your chain of reasoning is: 1. Someone "defends Israel". 2. The way they do it in this specific case is by saying the other person is anti-semitic. 3. Because some people in Israel think fairly attrocious things and are racist, this implies that any defense of Israel is implicitly a defense of racism, therefore making the defender racist. Is that the chain here? Basically, you can't defend a country in which 10% of people are racist, without yourself being racist? If so, that chain of reasoning is pretty ridiculous. That's like someone saying they like the US, and you deciding they are racist, because in a 2013 poll, 17% of Americans were against interracial marriage. It's a huge and nonsensical logical leap to go from "some action that country X has done is OK" to "I therefore support what any subset, even as small as 10% of the country, thinks".