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> They made a shrine to a terrorist (Baruch Goldstein) Not sure what you're talking about here. Baruch Goldstein has no "shrine"* and besides fringe groups in

> They made a shrine to a terrorist (Baruch Goldstein) Not sure what you're talking about here. Baruch Goldstein has no "shrine"* and besides fringe groups in Israel he is generally not accepted. Compare that with the monthly salaries Palestinian terrorists receive from the PLO and their rockstar status in Palestinian society. * he has a grave, Israeli law can't really prevent that. The Israeli government has ruined most of the site of his grave despite his family's appeals.

pydry 3y ago
His grave, the shrine: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910... 10% of Israelis consider him a national hero, according to Israeli polls: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 The Minister for National Security Ben Gvir had a portrait of Baruch in his living room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir I'd encourage anybody who visits Israel to go and see Kiryat Arba in the west bank settlement where Goldstein lived and where he committed his shooting spree, because it puts his act into context. It's a heavily militarized ethnically cleansed enclave of about 7,500 Israelis in the center of the second largest Palestinian west bank city - Hebron. Unlike other settlements they often live in the same buildings - in the floors above Palestinians that was confiscated from them. There is netting to trap the trash that they throw down on the citizens "beneath" them as guard in guard towers look on, pointing guns: https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 It's the most visible symbol of the kind of racism American supporters of Israel endorse, some of whom are, sadly, all too evident even in this thread.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  Most of his grave was ruined by the Israeli government, and you'll find no parliament members in Israel who publicly endorses Goldstein. None, not even the most radical right extremists in the current government. Privately some radical Israeli politicians like Itamar Ben Gvir probably like what Goldstein did but a) they're in the minority b) they're not giving any publicity to their private thoughts Palestinian terrorists however get a rockstar status in Palestinian society including streets named after them and a monthly salary given by the PLO if they're imprisoned.
- edanm 3y ago
  It's terrible that anyone supports any terrorist like Goldstein. It's even more terrible that Ben Gvir was elected, given his views. Though just for context, there is a huge political fight within Israel, partially because of people like Ben Gvir. It's not the whole country supporting this nonsense. And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many, I imagine it's comparable to similar numbers in other countries for similar-ish situations. Still terrible, but not exactly proof that the country is especially racist. (Though to be fair, it's not like there's zero racism in Israel, though I think it's less about race and more about the national situation/issues around the Palestinians. I don't think it makes sense to think about the Israeli situation in the same way one would think about the racism in the States, for example.)
  - pydry 3y ago
    >And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. 10% is enough to presume that the illegalization of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions in America is an explicitly pro-racist law. It is possible to make an accusation of anti-semitism that isn't motivated by racism. It's just much rarer than it should be.
    - edanm 3y ago
      > 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. I'm really trying to parse your logic, and failing. If I understand it, your chain of reasoning is: 1. Someone "defends Israel". 2. The way they do it in this specific case is by saying the other person is anti-semitic. 3. Because some people in Israel think fairly attrocious things and are racist, this implies that any defense of Israel is implicitly a defense of racism, therefore making the defender racist. Is that the chain here? Basically, you can't defend a country in which 10% of people are racist, without yourself being racist? If so, that chain of reasoning is pretty ridiculous. That's like someone saying they like the US, and you deciding they are racist, because in a 2013 poll, 17% of Americans were against interracial marriage. It's a huge and nonsensical logical leap to go from "some action that country X has done is OK" to "I therefore support what any subset, even as small as 10% of the country, thinks".
Brybry 3y ago
NY Times and AP News described it as a shrine when they reported on the Israeli government demolishing it. [1][2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/30/world/israel-destroys-shrine-to-mosque-gunman.html https://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/30/world/israel-destroys-shr... / https://archive.ph/RNPRh https://archive.ph/RNPRh [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ohMB-_1lPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ohMB-_1lPM
- edanm 3y ago
  To be clear, this is the context of the original message: > The irony is that it's probably one of the most racist countries I've ever seen in my entire life. They made a shrine to a terrorist (Baruch Goldstein). "They" here refers, I believe, to the country being racist. But saying that "they" made a shrine to Goldstein, in the context of an article describing that the Israeli government destroyed it, is like saying that US society is racist because the US government demloished a statue to Hitler put up by the KKK. It's taking the actions of a tiny group, specifically in the context of the government acting against that group, and somehow saying that reflects the whole country.
  - pydry 3y ago
    If you put it like that it'd be like if a Hitler shrine were demolished after 5 years, 10% of Americans considered Hitler a hero and Anthony Blinken still had a portrait of Hitler in his living room. Oh, and Joe Biden really wants blacks and whites to stop marrying. That's the level of racism you support if you weaponize anti-semitism in Israel's defense.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      There's 50% of Americans that support Donald Trump so... I don't think its unreasonable to think 10% of Americans hold extreme views.
      - pydry 3y ago
        Did Donald Trump take a machine gun to the 4th holiest mosque in the world and engage in a terrorist killing spree?

pydry 3y ago

His grave, the shrine: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910... 10% of Israelis consider him a national hero, according to Israeli polls: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 The Minister for National Security Ben Gvir had a portrait of Baruch in his living room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir I'd encourage anybody who visits Israel to go and see Kiryat Arba in the west bank settlement where Goldstein lived and where he committed his shooting spree, because it puts his act into context. It's a heavily militarized ethnically cleansed enclave of about 7,500 Israelis in the center of the second largest Palestinian west bank city - Hebron. Unlike other settlements they often live in the same buildings - in the floors above Palestinians that was confiscated from them. There is netting to trap the trash that they throw down on the citizens "beneath" them as guard in guard towers look on, pointing guns: https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 It's the most visible symbol of the kind of racism American supporters of Israel endorse, some of whom are, sadly, all too evident even in this thread.

weatherlite 3y ago
Most of his grave was ruined by the Israeli government, and you'll find no parliament members in Israel who publicly endorses Goldstein. None, not even the most radical right extremists in the current government. Privately some radical Israeli politicians like Itamar Ben Gvir probably like what Goldstein did but a) they're in the minority b) they're not giving any publicity to their private thoughts Palestinian terrorists however get a rockstar status in Palestinian society including streets named after them and a monthly salary given by the PLO if they're imprisoned.
edanm 3y ago
It's terrible that anyone supports any terrorist like Goldstein. It's even more terrible that Ben Gvir was elected, given his views. Though just for context, there is a huge political fight within Israel, partially because of people like Ben Gvir. It's not the whole country supporting this nonsense. And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many, I imagine it's comparable to similar numbers in other countries for similar-ish situations. Still terrible, but not exactly proof that the country is especially racist. (Though to be fair, it's not like there's zero racism in Israel, though I think it's less about race and more about the national situation/issues around the Palestinians. I don't think it makes sense to think about the Israeli situation in the same way one would think about the racism in the States, for example.)
- pydry 3y ago
  >And while 10% of Israelis saying he's a hero is 10% too many 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. 10% is enough to presume that the illegalization of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions in America is an explicitly pro-racist law. It is possible to make an accusation of anti-semitism that isn't motivated by racism. It's just much rarer than it should be.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > 10% is definitely enough to presume that anybody who throws out an accusation of anti-semitism in defense of Israel is racist by default. I'm really trying to parse your logic, and failing. If I understand it, your chain of reasoning is: 1. Someone "defends Israel". 2. The way they do it in this specific case is by saying the other person is anti-semitic. 3. Because some people in Israel think fairly attrocious things and are racist, this implies that any defense of Israel is implicitly a defense of racism, therefore making the defender racist. Is that the chain here? Basically, you can't defend a country in which 10% of people are racist, without yourself being racist? If so, that chain of reasoning is pretty ridiculous. That's like someone saying they like the US, and you deciding they are racist, because in a 2013 poll, 17% of Americans were against interracial marriage. It's a huge and nonsensical logical leap to go from "some action that country X has done is OK" to "I therefore support what any subset, even as small as 10% of the country, thinks".

Brybry 3y ago

NY Times and AP News described it as a shrine when they reported on the Israeli government demolishing it. [1][2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/30/world/israel-destroys-shrine-to-mosque-gunman.html https://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/30/world/israel-destroys-shr... / https://archive.ph/RNPRh https://archive.ph/RNPRh [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ohMB-_1lPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ohMB-_1lPM

edanm 3y ago
To be clear, this is the context of the original message: > The irony is that it's probably one of the most racist countries I've ever seen in my entire life. They made a shrine to a terrorist (Baruch Goldstein). "They" here refers, I believe, to the country being racist. But saying that "they" made a shrine to Goldstein, in the context of an article describing that the Israeli government destroyed it, is like saying that US society is racist because the US government demloished a statue to Hitler put up by the KKK. It's taking the actions of a tiny group, specifically in the context of the government acting against that group, and somehow saying that reflects the whole country.
- pydry 3y ago
  If you put it like that it'd be like if a Hitler shrine were demolished after 5 years, 10% of Americans considered Hitler a hero and Anthony Blinken still had a portrait of Hitler in his living room. Oh, and Joe Biden really wants blacks and whites to stop marrying. That's the level of racism you support if you weaponize anti-semitism in Israel's defense.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    There's 50% of Americans that support Donald Trump so... I don't think its unreasonable to think 10% of Americans hold extreme views.
    - pydry 3y ago
      Did Donald Trump take a machine gun to the 4th holiest mosque in the world and engage in a terrorist killing spree?