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I know I'm naive: I don't understand why US companies are so sensitive to respecting Israel. I don't know why our gov is so sensitive to this either. Israel
by throwaway914 3y ago
I know I'm naive: I don't understand why US companies are so sensitive to respecting Israel. I don't know why our gov is so sensitive to this either. Israel - like all countries - deserves criticism, no? This can't purely be about respecting the billions spent on US weapons to defend Israel, right? I genuinely do not understand, because I think they'd happily buy from the military anyway.
- draw_down 3y ago[dead]
- froggysnail 3y ago[flagged]
- sshine 3y agoCan we get a spoiler?
- Takennickname 3y ago[flagged]
- greggsy 3y agoOk now what… This isn’t a very informative or insightful comment.
- terrybingus 3y ago[flagged]
- sunshinerag 3y agoIQ isn’t a real measure of anything
- actuator 3y agoWow, you are trying to build up a ethno-religious conspiracy, seems uncalled for
- gwd 3y agoIndeed; it's possible to love a person or a country, and yet still grieve their faults and wish them to be better. I'd argue that's the only real way to love anyone or anything. On the flip side, human nature being what it is, giving any person or set of people unconditional approval is creating conditions where evil can thrive.
- bad_user 3y agoThe criticism of Israel, coming from the left, is usually Anti-Zionism, which questions Israel's existence.
- gwd 3y agoCan you expand on that? One interpretation of "Zionism" could mean the idea that Israel should be an ethnically and religiously Jewish state that comprises the Biblical land of Israel, and that everyone else should be second-class citizens; and so simply saying that Israel should be a democracy that gives equal rights to all the people living within its borders, or that Israel should respect the Palestinian territories, would be "Anti-Zionist". Under this interpretation, "Anti-Zionism questions Israel's existence" really means "Anti-Zionism questions the existence of one particular vision for what Israel should be". That's not really a bad thing. If, on the other hand, "Anti-Zionist" means the abolishing the Israeli government and re-partitioning the territory back into its pre-1948 states -- I mean, yeah, that's pretty bad; but I've never heard any of my left-leaning friends advocate anything like that, and such a desire would be really incompatible with everything else they're in favor of. But these are just guesses, since you didn't provide much context.
- Asparagus7426 3y agoIt's more of a vilifying caricature than an actual "interpretation of Zionism." Even the most right-wing branch of Zionism, revisionist Zionism, which indeed advocated for the entire biblical territory of Israel in the past, simultaneously believed in full and equal rights for its Arab/Palestinian citizens, as outlined by its founder, Ze'ev Jabotinsky. Zionism at its core is the belief that the Jewish people have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. This is precisely what "anti-Zionism" opposes. Middle Eastern/Arab "anti-Zionists" advocate for exactly what you mentioned in your second paragraph. Additionally, depending on their political affiliation, some may seek the subjugation, expulsion, or harm of the Jewish population in Israel/Palestine. The percentage of Palestinians advocating for a one-state solution with equal rights for all is at most 33%, according to the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR). Your "left-leaning" friends may not have expressed anything like that and might simply want to express solidarity with the perceived "weaker" side. However, by proclaiming to be "anti-Zionist," they are undoubtedly associating themselves with some aspects of hardcore Palestinian nationalism. It's puzzling to me how this is compatible with traditional left-leaning stances and why any self-described left-leaning person would want to be associated with that, except due to extreme ignorance about the meaning of the words and the actual situation on the ground.
- fsiefken 3y agoFrom what I understand reading the article it's not about Meta respecting Israel, but Israel actively using the Meta rules to target criticism. This is also what I experienced as a moderator for interreligious dialogue. Certain groups were more aggressive in asserting their truth, not by using arguments, debate and dialogue, but using straw man tactics, meta communication and loopholes in the moderation rules to get their way.
- terrybingus 3y ago[flagged]
- weatherlite 3y agoYes everyone is always so respectful of Israel, I only read good things about Israel on the media /s
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ta2234234242 3y ago> Israel - like all countries - deserves criticism, no? Maybe go look up Jonathan Pollard. If Israel is our close friend, why would they need to spy on us? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://www.military.com/history/jonathan-pollard-was-one-of-most-damaging-spies-us-history.html https://www.military.com/history/jonathan-pollard-was-one-of...
- unmole 3y ago> If Israel is our close friend, why would they need to spy on us? The same reason why the US spies on the Bundeskanzler.
- swexbe 3y agoRules for thee
- Paradigma11 3y agoSame reason the US spies on all of its friends? An actual reason I have heard is that it is as important to have independent information on your allies than it is on your enemies. Even if it is only for better coordination.
- ralusek 3y agoUS spies on itself and everyone else.
- SenAnder 3y agoPart of the answer is simply that a large fraction of the US government is Jewish. E.g. according to the White House, their staff (everything from stenographers and secretaries, to labor relations representatives and foreign policy experts) is 32% Jewish (2.4% of US population), 44% ethnic minority (about even with US), and 24% non-Jewish White (55% of US) Sources: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36119693 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36119693
- stonogo 3y ago...you think that fifty-plus years of foreign policy is because there aren't "enough" non-Jewish white people in the White House at the moment?
- SenAnder 3y agoIt's unlikely this is a momentary phenomenon. It's hard to find data, but this over-representation is not new. Looking at a single, albeit important, political post, in the 53 years since 1970, the chair of the Federal Reserve has been Jewish for 38 of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair_of_the_Federal_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair_of_the_Federal_Reserve To not base conclusions on a single data point (maybe the Fed Chair is an outlier), US Jews also contributed 50% of all donations to the Democratic party, and 25% to the Republican party: https://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/US-Jews-contribute-half-of-all-donations-to-the-Democratic-party-468774 https://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/US-Jews-contribute-half-o...
- DrFlipper 3y ago[flagged]
- bad_user 3y ago[flagged]
- ethanbond 3y agoNope. It’s eschatological Christians who back Israel. Has nothing to do with protecting Jews and everything to do with evangelical Christians’ end times prophecy. The world’s largest military has made decades of foreign policy decisions in accordance with these people’s doomsday fetish.
- pydry 3y agoThe Israel lobby is incredibly powerful and well funded. They have a lot of money to throw around, much of which they throw at the US Government, which is consequently filled with their supporters. US companies know this and tread carefully. They've weaponized anti-semitism against their detractors. And, who wants to be accused of racism? Even false accusations stain your reputation. The irony is that it's probably one of the most racist countries I've ever seen in my entire life. They made a shrine to a terrorist (Baruch Goldstein). The president proudly called miscegenation "a tragedy". If you can imagine a white US president openly calling for whites and blacks to stop having babies - that's the level of racism this state's supporters endorse when weaponizing anti semitism.
- weatherlite 3y ago> They made a shrine to a terrorist (Baruch Goldstein) Not sure what you're talking about here. Baruch Goldstein has no "shrine"* and besides fringe groups in Israel he is generally not accepted. Compare that with the monthly salaries Palestinian terrorists receive from the PLO and their rockstar status in Palestinian society. * he has a grave, Israeli law can't really prevent that. The Israeli government has ruined most of the site of his grave despite his family's appeals.
- pydry 3y agoHis grave, the shrine: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-jun-05-mn-56910... 10% of Israelis consider him a national hero, according to Israeli polls: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733523 The Minister for National Security Ben Gvir had a portrait of Baruch in his living room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir I'd encourage anybody who visits Israel to go and see Kiryat Arba in the west bank settlement where Goldstein lived and where he committed his shooting spree, because it puts his act into context. It's a heavily militarized ethnically cleansed enclave of about 7,500 Israelis in the center of the second largest Palestinian west bank city - Hebron. Unlike other settlements they often live in the same buildings - in the floors above Palestinians that was confiscated from them. There is netting to trap the trash that they throw down on the citizens "beneath" them as guard in guard towers look on, pointing guns: https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1668711490025603072 It's the most visible symbol of the kind of racism American supporters of Israel endorse, some of whom are, sadly, all too evident even in this thread.
- stonogo 3y agoIt's a deep political tie with a complex past. Here's decent book on the subject: https://academic.oup.com/book/7112 https://academic.oup.com/book/7112 The Wikipedia article on "Christian Zionism" may also shed some light. Basically, boosting Israel makes politicians popular with big swaths of their electorate. Pissing those electorates off makes things tough on a corporation, so they generally try not to.
- 29athrowaway 3y agoThere are laws that limit how much you can criticize Israel at this moment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws
- tyingq 3y agoI mean it boils down to oil and presence/influence in areas close to the oil.
- colpabar 3y agoIt sucks that so many people will say that the US involvement in the middle east was mainly about oil but that logic never gets applied to israel's (illegal) expansion and the implicit US support for it. There is SO much oil there. Oh well, I guess it's more fun to blame the evangelicals and ignore the insane profit motive.
- dheavy 3y agoLobbying? As a secular Jew in Western Europe, I've distanced myself from my religious community due to its insistence on tying my identity to Israel. Where I live, it's less taboo to critique Israel than in the U.S., but still tricky. Advocates of Israel's right-wing politics have blurred the line between criticizing Israel and anti-Semitism, an endeavor helped by actual anti-Semites. I've grown up with these supporters, but can't quite call them a "lobby" due to their loose organization and lesser influence here compared to the U.S. Speaking out brings risks: being labeled a leftist extremist, clashing with fellow Jews, or unwittingly aiding anti-Semites. And that's if you are Jew. This creates a pervasive, cautious silence that I imagine is even more stifling in countries with highly organized pro-Israel lobbying.
- arp242 3y agoI was once "reported to ADL" for my anti-Semitism. My horrid crime that made me literally Hitler? Disagreement if a tag should be named "jews" or "judaism" on the Politics Stack Exchange site. I made an off-hand comment that I renamed the tag from "jews" to "judaism" and the very first response was that I had been "reported to the ADL" (whether they actually did: who knows? Probably not). That such an incredibly boring, banal, and benign disagreement exploded in accusations of anti-Semitism so quickly has made me rather distrustful of these accusations in general unless I can verify things. Anti-Semitism is real, but so are narcissistic people abusing it to "win the argument". If you need to defend yourself with "but I'm not anti-Semitic!" then you've already kind of lost the argument, right?
- trogdor 3y agoOne of my favorite books is “Kindly Inquisitors” by Jonathan Rauch. Highly recommended. Among its core messages is that accusations of bias are often used to stop discourse. The strongest response against a factual claim is that it’s wrong. Not that it’s racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, etc. “If there be time to expose through discussion, the falsehoods and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.” -Justice Louis Brandeis
- myth_drannon 3y ago
- trilbyglens 3y agoThere's also a lot of wacky christian folklore that is very popular in evangelical America that has to do with Israel being involved in the "end days". Some nutjobs feel that a strong Israeli state will hasten the rapture or some nonsense like that. There are a good number of those folk in elected positions, but also the evangelical crowd is inordinately influential in US politics, so it weasels it's way into many different facets of policy making. It's just one aspect of a complex picture though.
- ethanbond 3y ago[flagged]
- DrFlipper 3y ago[flagged]
- ethanbond 3y agoNope, I’m an atheist born to a former protestant and a former Catholic, raised in an extremely Christian part of the US and attended Baptist churches growing up. It’s amazing how much of an overconfident doofus some simple bigotry (anti-Jewish in your case) can make someone, eh?
- ShellfishMeme 3y agoYour comment history explicitly mentions that you are a fascist. I guess nowadays you folks stopped measuring skull shapes and read things into internet comments instead.
- DrFlipper 3y ago[flagged]
- 221qqwe 3y agoIt might be the answer on Reddit where any meaningful discussion is usually impossible and the most absurd sounding claims are upvoted. Do we also have to do it here?
- tamimio 3y ago- A lot of the US senators have dual citizenship, US/Israelis. - Strong lobby in both political parties. - Boomers with their Judeo-Christians “values”. - Israel intelligence agencies controlling/influencing ADL, ADL pressuring three letter agencies in US to further influence big tech. - The usual tactics of infiltration into big corps especially ones that can influence public opinions, you can read a little about Roy Bollock case >The ADL operates as a private intelligence agency, sending spies, infiltrators, disruptors, and agents provocateurs into the camps — both Jewish and non-Jewish — of those who disagree with its view of Jewish interests. Also like an intelligence agency, it maintains a huge database containing personal information on politicians, writers, dissidents, activists, publishers, bloggers, and even unaffiliated private citizens so that — should any of these people “get out of line,” in the opinion of the ADL — they can be threatened, “exposed,” blackmailed, and thus silenced with maximum effectiveness. [1] - And especially for Facebook with their shady business, they live on selling the users data to advertisers, the company won’t do anything to cut that money flow, take a look at twitter in the same case how ADL managed to cut around 60% of ads companies, it’s mostly about money and influence. [1] redice.tv/news/the-adl-and-domestic-spying-roy-bullock-case-revisited
- zogrodea 3y ago[flagged]
- boppo1 3y agoWasn't he wrongly convicted by KKK-sympathetic southern white jurors? The /pol/ narrative tends to ignore consensus on reality.
- zogrodea 3y agoI don't think so. The person he tried shifting blame on was black, and this was one of the landmark cases in America of a black person winning in court over a white one. The KKK hates both groups of course but not equally. I don't find it hard to believe because of the dishonesty I've seen from ADL and Zionists in trying to distort the truth, and the disingenious way they respond to those they disagree with. For example, conflating all criticism of the state of Israel with anti-Semitism and an attack on Jews when that state, like every other country, has many faults to criticise it for.
- weregiraffe 3y agoThe Western world has a 2000+ years long history of antisemitism (starting back in the Hellenistic era when the Mediterranean polytheist majority was not amused by Jewish minority strict monotheism, and vice versa). Every criticism of Israel must be viewed in that light, because 95% of it is just the endlessly rehashed antisemitism.
- blueflow 3y agoEvery criticism of Israel must be viewed on a factual basis and whether its unfounded or not.