4 ms·

It seems dodgy to talk about "chronic avoidance/dissociation" being the "underlying issue". The word "underlying" is usually used to refer to the cause, when it

by ajb 3y ago

It seems dodgy to talk about "chronic avoidance/dissociation" being the "underlying issue". The word "underlying" is usually used to refer to the cause, when it's clearly a response. I think this will result justified distrust of your advice, despite your experience.

lindsaywaterman 3y ago
You’re totally right that worse somatic symptoms create a viscipus cycle of avoidance and worsening symptoms. I do think that a chronic pattern of avoidance is what causes somatizing in the first place tho. Peace.
- smearth 3y ago
  You might think that but it doesn’t heal anyone. Recovery rates for cfs are abysmal, I’m surprised you aren’t ashamed of your profession’s performance in this area. You seem comfortable placing responsibility for the illness on your patients “avoidance”. Yet it is initiated by a virus and everyone has different levels of mitochondrial density, resilience and health and different inflammatory cascades. “Avoidance” of what? The medical profession has a chronic pattern of avoiding the fact they can’t heal anything involving more than about 4 variables. Explain how vitamin d, k, and serum ferritin interact in bone marrow please Doc or cholesterol’s role in cellular permeability as an immune defense or a vitamin D deficiencies effect on the permeability of cartilage and subsequent concentrations of potassium in the inner ears please doc, or latent hibernation responses, or the effect of obstetrics on the mitochondrial health of a population, or unknown pathogens or a combination of all of those things. Because any combination of a breakdown in those things could be contributors to the fatigue you’ve attributed to avoidance yet your profession has avoided researching all of them. Your profession avoids the fact that medical research is mainly focused on fast financial returns. I do think there is a chronic pattern of some doctors avoiding shame at their self-perceived inadequacies caused by their medical school trivial pursuit trauma conditioning that is useless for complex problem solving and then projecting that shame onto their patients in order to minimise the cognitive dissonance surrounding their ineffective treatment plans for chronic conditions . I cured my chronic fatigue - no thanks to your professions expertise - the avoidance was a necessary part of the cure while my body healed. Some times people have bad luck. It is unavoidable.
  - dwaltrip 3y ago
    They weren’t blaming. They were attempting to neutrally describe their best understanding of the phenomena. Do what you will with the information. But I understand your pain and frustration. I’ve had to carve my own path to find the healing I needed as well. It’s not easy. Good luck to you.
  - growingkittens 3y ago
    I think you're reading the term "avoidant stress response" and the consequent term "chronic avoidance" as having a moral value. This is an issue with many medical terms. In my understanding, these terms simply refer to how an individual tackles problems: do they avoid asking for help to the point of dysfunction, or are they able to ask for help when needed? edit: Once an individual's systems are out of balance, it can be difficult to rebalance without the right perspective. If an individual cannot regain equilibrium due to interacting factors (such as someone who grew up without ever knowing equilibrium), the lack of balance becomes chronic.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    So what was your cure?
    - smearth 3y ago
      I gradually figured out what activities, supplements and foods reduced my susceptibility to fatigue and pain and then repetitively used them until I got to a point that I was no longer susceptible to fatigue within the bounds of what I consider a healthy fulfilling life so that I can now convincingly pretend to myself that I don't have cfs. I'm no longer staring into the abyss. I can't run a marathon or do too much mental grunt work but I can just make a modest living, go for a 40 minute zone2 run or 3 hour hike, be a parent, sustain a relationship and keep some friendships going. In the midst of cfs I could only really be a part time parent with support, everything else stopped and I had no certainty that it would ever start again.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    > I do think there is a chronic pattern of some doctors avoiding shame at their self-perceived inadequacies caused by their medical school trivial pursuit trauma conditioning that is useless for complex problem solving and then projecting that shame onto their patients in order to minimise the cognitive dissonance surrounding their ineffective treatment plans for chronic conditions The fact that patients consistently react in this way (or worse) I think is why we rarely discuss true causes of CFS nowadays in the medical industry. Many, many lay-people assign strong negative moral associations with having any somatic cause of their symptoms.

by ajb 3y ago

lindsaywaterman 3y ago

You’re totally right that worse somatic symptoms create a viscipus cycle of avoidance and worsening symptoms. I do think that a chronic pattern of avoidance is what causes somatizing in the first place tho. Peace.

smearth 3y ago
You might think that but it doesn’t heal anyone. Recovery rates for cfs are abysmal, I’m surprised you aren’t ashamed of your profession’s performance in this area. You seem comfortable placing responsibility for the illness on your patients “avoidance”. Yet it is initiated by a virus and everyone has different levels of mitochondrial density, resilience and health and different inflammatory cascades. “Avoidance” of what? The medical profession has a chronic pattern of avoiding the fact they can’t heal anything involving more than about 4 variables. Explain how vitamin d, k, and serum ferritin interact in bone marrow please Doc or cholesterol’s role in cellular permeability as an immune defense or a vitamin D deficiencies effect on the permeability of cartilage and subsequent concentrations of potassium in the inner ears please doc, or latent hibernation responses, or the effect of obstetrics on the mitochondrial health of a population, or unknown pathogens or a combination of all of those things. Because any combination of a breakdown in those things could be contributors to the fatigue you’ve attributed to avoidance yet your profession has avoided researching all of them. Your profession avoids the fact that medical research is mainly focused on fast financial returns. I do think there is a chronic pattern of some doctors avoiding shame at their self-perceived inadequacies caused by their medical school trivial pursuit trauma conditioning that is useless for complex problem solving and then projecting that shame onto their patients in order to minimise the cognitive dissonance surrounding their ineffective treatment plans for chronic conditions . I cured my chronic fatigue - no thanks to your professions expertise - the avoidance was a necessary part of the cure while my body healed. Some times people have bad luck. It is unavoidable.
- dwaltrip 3y ago
  They weren’t blaming. They were attempting to neutrally describe their best understanding of the phenomena. Do what you will with the information. But I understand your pain and frustration. I’ve had to carve my own path to find the healing I needed as well. It’s not easy. Good luck to you.
- growingkittens 3y ago
  I think you're reading the term "avoidant stress response" and the consequent term "chronic avoidance" as having a moral value. This is an issue with many medical terms. In my understanding, these terms simply refer to how an individual tackles problems: do they avoid asking for help to the point of dysfunction, or are they able to ask for help when needed? edit: Once an individual's systems are out of balance, it can be difficult to rebalance without the right perspective. If an individual cannot regain equilibrium due to interacting factors (such as someone who grew up without ever knowing equilibrium), the lack of balance becomes chronic.
- colordrops 3y ago
  So what was your cure?
  - smearth 3y ago
    I gradually figured out what activities, supplements and foods reduced my susceptibility to fatigue and pain and then repetitively used them until I got to a point that I was no longer susceptible to fatigue within the bounds of what I consider a healthy fulfilling life so that I can now convincingly pretend to myself that I don't have cfs. I'm no longer staring into the abyss. I can't run a marathon or do too much mental grunt work but I can just make a modest living, go for a 40 minute zone2 run or 3 hour hike, be a parent, sustain a relationship and keep some friendships going. In the midst of cfs I could only really be a part time parent with support, everything else stopped and I had no certainty that it would ever start again.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  > I do think there is a chronic pattern of some doctors avoiding shame at their self-perceived inadequacies caused by their medical school trivial pursuit trauma conditioning that is useless for complex problem solving and then projecting that shame onto their patients in order to minimise the cognitive dissonance surrounding their ineffective treatment plans for chronic conditions The fact that patients consistently react in this way (or worse) I think is why we rarely discuss true causes of CFS nowadays in the medical industry. Many, many lay-people assign strong negative moral associations with having any somatic cause of their symptoms.