4 ms·

Electric cars have a road trip problem, even for the secretary of energy

22 points by Stratoscope 3y ago

ryzvonusef 3y ago
TL;DR: None of the cars in convey were Teslas
- bartvk 3y ago
  Exactly. Otherwise it would not be any problem whatsoever. And I say this as an EV enthusiast.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  The real TL;DR is the road trip was not taken in Europe. North America is years behind Europe in EV infrastructure.
- Anon_Forever 3y ago
  [flagged]
6figurelenins 3y ago
> [Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm's] advance team realized there weren't going to be enough plugs to go around... So an Energy Department staffer tried parking a nonelectric vehicle by one of those working chargers to reserve a spot for the approaching secretary of energy... a family that was boxed out — on a sweltering day, with a baby in the vehicle... called the police Benefit analysis: Global carbon emissions, US share (2021)[1]: 14% ..Transportation sector[2]: 28% ....Light-duty vehicles[3,4]: 58% ......Electricity, non-hydrocarbon sources[5]: 40% So we can solve less than 1% of the problem. What will it cost? [1] https://www.statista.com/topics/3185/us-greenhouse-gas-emissions/#topicOverview https://www.statista.com/topics/3185/us-greenhouse-gas-emiss... [2] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... [3] https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-greenhouse-gas-emissions https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-... [4] https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-12/58566-co2-emissions-transportation.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-12/58566-co2-emissions... [5] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
- jfim 3y ago
  It might be less than 1% globally, but moving from gas cars to electric has the potential to lower the US carbon emissions by more than 16%, according to your numbers.
willcipriano 3y ago
We are blessed to have such competent leadership.
EdwardDiego 3y ago
So basically, we need to build more infrastructure for EVs? Sorta like what was built for ICE vehicles? The distillery units that extract petrol/diesel, the ships that transport it (where applicable), the holding tanks they unload into, the network of fuel trucks that distribute it to the thousands of petrol stations? Yeah, well, colour me shocked that a lack of infrastructure right now makes using EVs challenging right now. I mean, only four charging spots in that town, but how many bowsers are in that town? EV infra is a classic chicken and egg problem, while EV ownership rates are low, there's minimal incentive to build the infrastructure. And poor infrastructure makes purchasing an EV an exercise in risk analysis that harms uptake.
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  The term infrastructure here is really carrying a lot of weight. The challenges of supporting a nation of EV is entirely different than gasoline/diesel. Storage of electricity isn't as simple as burrying a large tank, and when everyone stops for gas at the same time it has no impact on the electric grid. We already have growing pains in our electric grid, those would only get worse with surging use as vehicles charge. If the existing grid may not work and storage is impractical, what's left?
  - pornel 3y ago
    The grid has a "duck curve", which means there is a lot of spare capacity outside of peak hours. And moving EV charging out of the peak hours is doable. Many charging stations already have batteries on site, because it lets them use cheaper electricity and/or provide charging speeds faster than their grid connection. EVs used for commuting are very flexible with their charging times. They can automatically delay/schedule charge times. Median US commute (35mi) requires charging about once a week. People who can't charge at home could charge at work (such low-speed chargers are relatively cheap and easy to install).
    - flagrant_taco 3y ago
      Yep, those are all totally fair points. I haven't run the math and tried to model it out so my opinion is definitely a combination of napkin math and gut feel I would be surprised if the grid + new battery storage could handle so much peak-y demand being added to it, but I've been surprised before!
beezlewax 3y ago
Why isn't there a standard for swappable batteries in electric vehicles? You could have stations like petrol has, pull up, swap out your battery for a fully charged one and be on the move again in seconds.
- keep_reading 3y ago
  Well designed battery packs have coolant running through them
- clouddrover 3y ago
  That's what they're doing in China: https://cnevpost.com/2021/05/10/battery-swap-national-standard-to-go-into-effect-nov-1/ https://cnevpost.com/2021/05/10/battery-swap-national-standa... https://cnevpost.com/2021/08/17/china-auto-association-seeks-comments-on-new-swap-station-standard-led-by-entities-including-nio/ https://cnevpost.com/2021/08/17/china-auto-association-seeks... Nio also has swap stations outside of China. It can swap the battery in 6 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0 Gogoro does swap stations for scooters: https://www.gogoro.com/gogoro-network/ https://www.gogoro.com/gogoro-network/ Other manufacturers are standardizing swappable batteries for motorbikes: https://www.rideapart.com/news/545061/honda-sets-big-four-standard/ https://www.rideapart.com/news/545061/honda-sets-big-four-st...
- pornel 3y ago
  It's been done successfully for motorbikes (gogoro). Nio has swapping stations for cars, but they take over 5 minutes for a swap. Automakers are looking to make batteries a structural component (save weight), and want to make batteries lower-profile to avoid raising floor higher (otherwise seating position or headroom loses). So removable batteries are a trade-off. OTOH higher-end BEVs can charge to 80% under 20 minutes. So the speed difference is getting smaller, and probably it's easier and cheaper to just roll with charging.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  Swappable batteries inherently would come with compromises. The biggest of which is that swapping batteries means you get a battery of unknown health. Nobody wants that. Also it inherently limits design sizing. Batteries already try to cram every single cell into their packaging, which would have to be reduced by a swappable battery system.
mainpassathome 3y ago
[flagged]
fortran77 3y ago
> [Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm's] advance team realized there weren't going to be enough plugs to go around... So an Energy Department staffer tried parking a nonelectric vehicle by one of those working chargers to reserve a spot for the approaching secretary of energy... a family that was boxed out — on a sweltering day, with a baby in the vehicle... called the police THis is abhorent, disgusting behavior! I'm not sure it's a police matter, but I hope the woman that got blocked out of a charging spot can, with the cooperation of the owner of the charger and the private land it was on, sue the Department of Energy.

22 points by Stratoscope 3y ago

ryzvonusef 3y ago

TL;DR: None of the cars in convey were Teslas

bartvk 3y ago
Exactly. Otherwise it would not be any problem whatsoever. And I say this as an EV enthusiast.
clouddrover 3y ago
The real TL;DR is the road trip was not taken in Europe. North America is years behind Europe in EV infrastructure.
Anon_Forever 3y ago
[flagged]

6figurelenins 3y ago

> [Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm's] advance team realized there weren't going to be enough plugs to go around... So an Energy Department staffer tried parking a nonelectric vehicle by one of those working chargers to reserve a spot for the approaching secretary of energy... a family that was boxed out — on a sweltering day, with a baby in the vehicle... called the police Benefit analysis: Global carbon emissions, US share (2021)[1]: 14% ..Transportation sector[2]: 28% ....Light-duty vehicles[3,4]: 58% ......Electricity, non-hydrocarbon sources[5]: 40% So we can solve less than 1% of the problem. What will it cost? [1] https://www.statista.com/topics/3185/us-greenhouse-gas-emissions/#topicOverview https://www.statista.com/topics/3185/us-greenhouse-gas-emiss... [2] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... [3] https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-greenhouse-gas-emissions https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-... [4] https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-12/58566-co2-emissions-transportation.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-12/58566-co2-emissions... [5] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

jfim 3y ago
It might be less than 1% globally, but moving from gas cars to electric has the potential to lower the US carbon emissions by more than 16%, according to your numbers.

willcipriano 3y ago

We are blessed to have such competent leadership.

EdwardDiego 3y ago

So basically, we need to build more infrastructure for EVs? Sorta like what was built for ICE vehicles? The distillery units that extract petrol/diesel, the ships that transport it (where applicable), the holding tanks they unload into, the network of fuel trucks that distribute it to the thousands of petrol stations? Yeah, well, colour me shocked that a lack of infrastructure right now makes using EVs challenging right now. I mean, only four charging spots in that town, but how many bowsers are in that town? EV infra is a classic chicken and egg problem, while EV ownership rates are low, there's minimal incentive to build the infrastructure. And poor infrastructure makes purchasing an EV an exercise in risk analysis that harms uptake.

flagrant_taco 3y ago
The term infrastructure here is really carrying a lot of weight. The challenges of supporting a nation of EV is entirely different than gasoline/diesel. Storage of electricity isn't as simple as burrying a large tank, and when everyone stops for gas at the same time it has no impact on the electric grid. We already have growing pains in our electric grid, those would only get worse with surging use as vehicles charge. If the existing grid may not work and storage is impractical, what's left?
- pornel 3y ago
  The grid has a "duck curve", which means there is a lot of spare capacity outside of peak hours. And moving EV charging out of the peak hours is doable. Many charging stations already have batteries on site, because it lets them use cheaper electricity and/or provide charging speeds faster than their grid connection. EVs used for commuting are very flexible with their charging times. They can automatically delay/schedule charge times. Median US commute (35mi) requires charging about once a week. People who can't charge at home could charge at work (such low-speed chargers are relatively cheap and easy to install).
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    Yep, those are all totally fair points. I haven't run the math and tried to model it out so my opinion is definitely a combination of napkin math and gut feel I would be surprised if the grid + new battery storage could handle so much peak-y demand being added to it, but I've been surprised before!

beezlewax 3y ago

Why isn't there a standard for swappable batteries in electric vehicles? You could have stations like petrol has, pull up, swap out your battery for a fully charged one and be on the move again in seconds.

keep_reading 3y ago
Well designed battery packs have coolant running through them
clouddrover 3y ago
That's what they're doing in China: https://cnevpost.com/2021/05/10/battery-swap-national-standard-to-go-into-effect-nov-1/ https://cnevpost.com/2021/05/10/battery-swap-national-standa... https://cnevpost.com/2021/08/17/china-auto-association-seeks-comments-on-new-swap-station-standard-led-by-entities-including-nio/ https://cnevpost.com/2021/08/17/china-auto-association-seeks... Nio also has swap stations outside of China. It can swap the battery in 6 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0 Gogoro does swap stations for scooters: https://www.gogoro.com/gogoro-network/ https://www.gogoro.com/gogoro-network/ Other manufacturers are standardizing swappable batteries for motorbikes: https://www.rideapart.com/news/545061/honda-sets-big-four-standard/ https://www.rideapart.com/news/545061/honda-sets-big-four-st...
pornel 3y ago
It's been done successfully for motorbikes (gogoro). Nio has swapping stations for cars, but they take over 5 minutes for a swap. Automakers are looking to make batteries a structural component (save weight), and want to make batteries lower-profile to avoid raising floor higher (otherwise seating position or headroom loses). So removable batteries are a trade-off. OTOH higher-end BEVs can charge to 80% under 20 minutes. So the speed difference is getting smaller, and probably it's easier and cheaper to just roll with charging.
Kirby64 3y ago
Swappable batteries inherently would come with compromises. The biggest of which is that swapping batteries means you get a battery of unknown health. Nobody wants that. Also it inherently limits design sizing. Batteries already try to cram every single cell into their packaging, which would have to be reduced by a swappable battery system.

mainpassathome 3y ago

[flagged]

fortran77 3y ago