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> Linux required almost-daily googling and opening up a terminal to fix or change something. I usually try to avoid discussions of the OS, since it's such a te

> Linux required almost-daily googling and opening up a terminal to fix or change something. I usually try to avoid discussions of the OS, since it's such a terribly boring topic. However, this is quite an extraordinary claim that is made without any details. Perhaps you could elaborate. As someone that has used various Linux distros for nearly twenty years, I don't think I could construct a scenario in which someone doing the usual things has to open a terminal to "fix or change something" on a daily basis. It's probably less than once a year that I have to fix anything on my Linux desktop computers. Did you build your own Linux distribution? Were you running IT at a company with 50,000 Linux desktops? Were you testing the development version of a desktop environment?

sam345 3y ago
I believe it. I've used linux desktops for 20 years also and command line is definitely a must on a daily basis. Ive also used Windows and agree that it just fades into background. Windows 10/11 definitely less paiinful on the desktop. These days with better integration with and tools for Linux cli, Windows is definitely my preferred gui productivity environment. Many Linux fans don't know better or won't admit it because hate tends to blind.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  I just set up Windows and spent an entire week googling how to tame it. Turns out dism.exe at the CLI is required to make it free up 20 to 30GB! of disk space it was wasting. Many, many hours and late nights figuring out how to turn off telemetry, Edge and more. Multiple Group policy editor settings to force it to do what is asked and no more. For some reason updates and uninstalls take forever and uninstalls can’t be batched. (A powsh I found didn’t work) I could go on… “Fades in the background” my ass. :-P
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    > spent an entire week googling how to tame it Part of the reason Windows doesn't fade into the background for you is that you insist on fighting it, you're tweaking stuff you should just leave alone... according to Microsoft. Physically it's not possible for me to use Windows, my hand cramps up, not completely sure why that happens, but it provides a constant physical reminder that I'm using Windows.
  - cbozeman 3y ago
    2TB 2.5" SATA SSDs are $61. 2TB M.2 2280 NVMe SSDs are $63. Why are you worried about 20-30 GB again??
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Bandwidth - was building a VM. A 10GB VM is much more convenient than 40GB one, to move copy, share, run from network drive etc. And yes, a few older drives are kinda small here. Laptop vendors overcharge on storage so most of ours have a half TB, which goes fast. We could buy a number of new drives, or we could look up an esoteric CLI and free up 30g.
      - cbozeman 3y ago
        Ahhh yes, now that makes sense. Point taken!
- anothernewdude 3y ago
  Nonsense. They've moved so much stuff about all my windows knowledge from 7 is useless. You'll be in the same spot when 12 comes out.
  - bmicraft 3y ago
    I'm generally onboard with hating on windows, but windows 7 was 14 years ago. (Almost) everything software realted has changed in that time, not just Windows.
    - anothernewdude 3y ago
      Well it's hardly my fault that I've not had to use windows in the past 10 years. And no, not every UI has made needless changes since then.
- bergon 3y ago
  Could it be because you're more comfortable with the CLI than any GUI alternative? E.g. I wouldn't go clicking about for installing packages when it's just one line away. I know many power users of Windows that bring up their terminal frequently as well.
- modo_mario 3y ago
  >I've used linux desktops for 20 years also and command line is definitely a must on a daily basis. What were you using if I may ask? I use manjaro with plasma and.... idk I really don't have to use the commandline much if at all when i'm not coding. Last time I was forced to was a few months ago in fact with an old niche wifi dongle that didn't work without some tinkering but this now works out of the box as well.
- zelphirkalt 3y ago
  > Windows is definitely my preferred gui productivity environment lmao, not because I don't believe you really think what you write, but because how user hostile everything in Windows seems to me, if you only want to change a single setting. It will be hidden behind 3 level deep settings dialogs and a "material design" flat links connecting those setting dialogs, so almost no visual indication, to make things stand out. It is horrible UI design. Basically any modern GNU/Linux DE will offer more feedback and visibility in their settings dialogs and windows. Whenever I have to change any settings on Windows, I get a feeling of dread, because I know I will be searching for that setting. And never is the search any help, because they will name things different than I expect or it simply will not find the settings dialog I need to change that setting. It is almost like they intentionally hide the settings ... Windows feels like a system that protects clueless users from themselves.
  - yomlica8 3y ago
    The main problem with Windows' terrible settings is that they are constantly changing. So when you search for how to change something all the instructions are obsolete.
    - hakfoo 3y ago
      There's a frustrating trend across the software industry-- chasing that hypothetical "next billion" users by removing customization, complicating discovery, and nerfing advanced features. I'm sure Windows 11 works perfectly if you teleported in from a dimension without computers and never had to unlearn any prior experiences. You'll use the defaults, which of course expose you to the most possible Microsoft revenue streams, and not notice the friction points. It's probably a net positive for that user if they make customization limited and frustrating-- don't give him any paint and he can't paint himself into a corner, resulting in an expensive support session. The most cynical take on this is that the advanced users, who are suffering from the constant abuse from the software undermining attempts at personalization and breaking workflows, are not a priority. They've already paid, and are unlikely to suddenly turn into a new revenue centre.
squeaky-clean 3y ago
It's 2023 and I still can't get a Dell laptop with Linux pre-installed to sleep properly without crashing without editing things in the terminal and mucking about in the bios. Even giving up on that and disabling sleep on lid close requires using the terminal. Sure the Gnome Tweaks tool has a setting for that but it's not installed by default and check the comments here, it doesn't actually work. https://askubuntu.com/questions/15520/how-can-i-tell-ubuntu-to-do-nothing-when-i-close-my-laptop-lid https://askubuntu.com/questions/15520/how-can-i-tell-ubuntu-... https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-nz/000179566/how-to-disable-sleep-and-configure-lid-power-settings-for-ubuntu-or-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7 https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-nz/000179566/how-to-di...
- dspillett 3y ago
  It is 2023, and they seem to have completely broken hibernate on Windows. Didn't work reliably for a while, intermittently failing to wake up correctly in various ways, one of those ways being a black screen with no choice but to reboot¹, and it seems to have vanished as an option on most (maybe all) laptops I've used recently². And sleep doesn't always stay slept. We've had machines wake up in bags so when later needed they have near flat batteries and are nice & toasty³. So sleep/hibernate not working right is hardly a significant difference when comparing Linux to Windows. In fact one of the laptops I had trouble with did sleep and hibernate properly when Linux went on it for a while, so at least sometimes the difference is not in favour of Windows. ---- [1] the couple of times that happened to me, the machine would still work via RDC and other such so an orderly restart could be arranged if I had another machine on the same network, but if I had no such machine available like when travelling a hard-reset had to be forced [2] I'm told you can force it to be available again, but I assume the removal is an admission that is doesn't work properly so enabling it is risky [3] being in a bag isn't great for cooling airflow!
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    > We've had machines wake up in bags so when later needed they have near flat batteries and are nice & toasty I've seen a hypothesis for this relatively common issue, which is: laptop goes to sleep while connected to charger, then charger is unplugged but the laptop still believes it gets charged and starts downloading OS updates, emptying the battery and almost overheating in a bag. I don't have a Windows laptop to test it myself, though.
kuboble 3y ago
I think when you are such a proficient user of some technology you don't even realize how many mistakes you can make along the way. And some small annoyance that you don't even notice might be a burden and a day-long struggle for someone less experienced. As an example of such a behavior on Windows. My customers (too often) complain that my console-based program suddenly stopped and they tried everything and can't make it to restart. The problem is that they don't realize that selecting some text in the window blocks the stdout and the program won't continue until they remove the selection. So for a more experienced user it's nothing, but for someone new to terminal behavior it's a huge obstacle. On Linux you have much more traps like that.
- rendaw 3y ago
  GP said 15 years though, not exactly someone less experienced.
  - dspillett 3y ago
    I know people who seem to have managed to have the same year of experience 15 times over, learning nothing along the way… Time spent is not necessarily experience, especially if you are trying to do something else at the time. In this case trying to do DayJob so not having time/care to commit much operating system management knowledge to memory, which is more understandable than the people mentioned in my first sentence who were failing to learn what was their job.
gokhan 3y ago
My son got a Lenovo T16 AMD for school, wanted to go with Kubuntu and spent one week setting up hibernate. Only solution that works is still hacky, he runs a script that disables then enables some things after returning from hibernation to make networking work. This, on a machine that you can buy with Linux.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  My dad bought a Dell and reboots it almost every day because the wifi or USB drivers randomly stop working, on Windows. My own old Dell had a similar issue with the audio driver, it would just randomly stop working and every app trying to play a sound would instantly crash. Luckily in that case a generic Windows driver worked better. So two of three Dell laptops in our family were basically shipped in a broken state. My Surface Pro soft bricked itself during a normal shutdown. I had great experiences with Windows in the past, but not anymore.

sam345 3y ago

I believe it. I've used linux desktops for 20 years also and command line is definitely a must on a daily basis. Ive also used Windows and agree that it just fades into background. Windows 10/11 definitely less paiinful on the desktop. These days with better integration with and tools for Linux cli, Windows is definitely my preferred gui productivity environment. Many Linux fans don't know better or won't admit it because hate tends to blind.

mixmastamyk 3y ago
I just set up Windows and spent an entire week googling how to tame it. Turns out dism.exe at the CLI is required to make it free up 20 to 30GB! of disk space it was wasting. Many, many hours and late nights figuring out how to turn off telemetry, Edge and more. Multiple Group policy editor settings to force it to do what is asked and no more. For some reason updates and uninstalls take forever and uninstalls can’t be batched. (A powsh I found didn’t work) I could go on… “Fades in the background” my ass. :-P
- mrweasel 3y ago
  > spent an entire week googling how to tame it Part of the reason Windows doesn't fade into the background for you is that you insist on fighting it, you're tweaking stuff you should just leave alone... according to Microsoft. Physically it's not possible for me to use Windows, my hand cramps up, not completely sure why that happens, but it provides a constant physical reminder that I'm using Windows.
- cbozeman 3y ago
  2TB 2.5" SATA SSDs are $61. 2TB M.2 2280 NVMe SSDs are $63. Why are you worried about 20-30 GB again??
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Bandwidth - was building a VM. A 10GB VM is much more convenient than 40GB one, to move copy, share, run from network drive etc. And yes, a few older drives are kinda small here. Laptop vendors overcharge on storage so most of ours have a half TB, which goes fast. We could buy a number of new drives, or we could look up an esoteric CLI and free up 30g.
    - cbozeman 3y ago
      Ahhh yes, now that makes sense. Point taken!
anothernewdude 3y ago
Nonsense. They've moved so much stuff about all my windows knowledge from 7 is useless. You'll be in the same spot when 12 comes out.
- bmicraft 3y ago
  I'm generally onboard with hating on windows, but windows 7 was 14 years ago. (Almost) everything software realted has changed in that time, not just Windows.
  - anothernewdude 3y ago
    Well it's hardly my fault that I've not had to use windows in the past 10 years. And no, not every UI has made needless changes since then.
bergon 3y ago
Could it be because you're more comfortable with the CLI than any GUI alternative? E.g. I wouldn't go clicking about for installing packages when it's just one line away. I know many power users of Windows that bring up their terminal frequently as well.
modo_mario 3y ago
>I've used linux desktops for 20 years also and command line is definitely a must on a daily basis. What were you using if I may ask? I use manjaro with plasma and.... idk I really don't have to use the commandline much if at all when i'm not coding. Last time I was forced to was a few months ago in fact with an old niche wifi dongle that didn't work without some tinkering but this now works out of the box as well.
zelphirkalt 3y ago
> Windows is definitely my preferred gui productivity environment lmao, not because I don't believe you really think what you write, but because how user hostile everything in Windows seems to me, if you only want to change a single setting. It will be hidden behind 3 level deep settings dialogs and a "material design" flat links connecting those setting dialogs, so almost no visual indication, to make things stand out. It is horrible UI design. Basically any modern GNU/Linux DE will offer more feedback and visibility in their settings dialogs and windows. Whenever I have to change any settings on Windows, I get a feeling of dread, because I know I will be searching for that setting. And never is the search any help, because they will name things different than I expect or it simply will not find the settings dialog I need to change that setting. It is almost like they intentionally hide the settings ... Windows feels like a system that protects clueless users from themselves.
- yomlica8 3y ago
  The main problem with Windows' terrible settings is that they are constantly changing. So when you search for how to change something all the instructions are obsolete.
  - hakfoo 3y ago
    There's a frustrating trend across the software industry-- chasing that hypothetical "next billion" users by removing customization, complicating discovery, and nerfing advanced features. I'm sure Windows 11 works perfectly if you teleported in from a dimension without computers and never had to unlearn any prior experiences. You'll use the defaults, which of course expose you to the most possible Microsoft revenue streams, and not notice the friction points. It's probably a net positive for that user if they make customization limited and frustrating-- don't give him any paint and he can't paint himself into a corner, resulting in an expensive support session. The most cynical take on this is that the advanced users, who are suffering from the constant abuse from the software undermining attempts at personalization and breaking workflows, are not a priority. They've already paid, and are unlikely to suddenly turn into a new revenue centre.

squeaky-clean 3y ago

It's 2023 and I still can't get a Dell laptop with Linux pre-installed to sleep properly without crashing without editing things in the terminal and mucking about in the bios. Even giving up on that and disabling sleep on lid close requires using the terminal. Sure the Gnome Tweaks tool has a setting for that but it's not installed by default and check the comments here, it doesn't actually work. https://askubuntu.com/questions/15520/how-can-i-tell-ubuntu-to-do-nothing-when-i-close-my-laptop-lid https://askubuntu.com/questions/15520/how-can-i-tell-ubuntu-... https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-nz/000179566/how-to-disable-sleep-and-configure-lid-power-settings-for-ubuntu-or-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7 https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-nz/000179566/how-to-di...

dspillett 3y ago
It is 2023, and they seem to have completely broken hibernate on Windows. Didn't work reliably for a while, intermittently failing to wake up correctly in various ways, one of those ways being a black screen with no choice but to reboot¹, and it seems to have vanished as an option on most (maybe all) laptops I've used recently². And sleep doesn't always stay slept. We've had machines wake up in bags so when later needed they have near flat batteries and are nice & toasty³. So sleep/hibernate not working right is hardly a significant difference when comparing Linux to Windows. In fact one of the laptops I had trouble with did sleep and hibernate properly when Linux went on it for a while, so at least sometimes the difference is not in favour of Windows. ---- [1] the couple of times that happened to me, the machine would still work via RDC and other such so an orderly restart could be arranged if I had another machine on the same network, but if I had no such machine available like when travelling a hard-reset had to be forced [2] I'm told you can force it to be available again, but I assume the removal is an admission that is doesn't work properly so enabling it is risky [3] being in a bag isn't great for cooling airflow!
- alpaca128 3y ago
  > We've had machines wake up in bags so when later needed they have near flat batteries and are nice & toasty I've seen a hypothesis for this relatively common issue, which is: laptop goes to sleep while connected to charger, then charger is unplugged but the laptop still believes it gets charged and starts downloading OS updates, emptying the battery and almost overheating in a bag. I don't have a Windows laptop to test it myself, though.

kuboble 3y ago

I think when you are such a proficient user of some technology you don't even realize how many mistakes you can make along the way. And some small annoyance that you don't even notice might be a burden and a day-long struggle for someone less experienced. As an example of such a behavior on Windows. My customers (too often) complain that my console-based program suddenly stopped and they tried everything and can't make it to restart. The problem is that they don't realize that selecting some text in the window blocks the stdout and the program won't continue until they remove the selection. So for a more experienced user it's nothing, but for someone new to terminal behavior it's a huge obstacle. On Linux you have much more traps like that.

rendaw 3y ago
GP said 15 years though, not exactly someone less experienced.
- dspillett 3y ago
  I know people who seem to have managed to have the same year of experience 15 times over, learning nothing along the way… Time spent is not necessarily experience, especially if you are trying to do something else at the time. In this case trying to do DayJob so not having time/care to commit much operating system management knowledge to memory, which is more understandable than the people mentioned in my first sentence who were failing to learn what was their job.

gokhan 3y ago

My son got a Lenovo T16 AMD for school, wanted to go with Kubuntu and spent one week setting up hibernate. Only solution that works is still hacky, he runs a script that disables then enables some things after returning from hibernation to make networking work. This, on a machine that you can buy with Linux.

alpaca128 3y ago
My dad bought a Dell and reboots it almost every day because the wifi or USB drivers randomly stop working, on Windows. My own old Dell had a similar issue with the audio driver, it would just randomly stop working and every app trying to play a sound would instantly crash. Luckily in that case a generic Windows driver worked better. So two of three Dell laptops in our family were basically shipped in a broken state. My Surface Pro soft bricked itself during a normal shutdown. I had great experiences with Windows in the past, but not anymore.