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I don't care for edge for the most part, but there is actually one integration with edge that I have come to like. When I click on an email link inside outlook,

I don't care for edge for the most part, but there is actually one integration with edge that I have come to like. When I click on an email link inside outlook, edge opens the link, and also displays a sidebar which displays the email. Super handy IMO. Somehow we need to find a balance that allows vendors to tightly integrate their apps but prevent abusing this. MS is everyone's favorite whipping boy, but I fear what kind of ads Google while shove through if they ever get a dominant market share in desktop OSs. Apple seems to be the only sensible alternative.

l33t7332273 3y ago
Ubuntu is very usable for a desktop OS.
- petre 3y ago
  Except they too pushed ads (ubuntu advantage) and snap and other annoying stuff.
  - diffeomorphism 3y ago
    Windows: ads in the start menu, candy crush, hey you are trying to install chrome and I don't like that. Ubuntu: one line message in the terminal about we released <new thing> thing, feel free to try it. Yeah, basically the same thing.
    - c0nducktr 3y ago
      It's the same thing, just one company has taken it further. I realize this is a slippery slope argument, but when there are countless examples of how this slopes is slippery, I think it's a valid point of contention.
      - l33t7332273 3y ago
        I think it’s a very different thing. The slope doesn’t seem particularly slippery. Choosing to be anti-user in your marketing seems like a form line.
      - DirkH 3y ago
        It's not the same thing for the same reason that a shiny billboard for an ad right outside your bedroom window that you can't not see every time you look outside is not the same as a text ad on the first page of a book you want to read. A text ad on the first page of a book is not a slippery slope to a billboard right outside your window. I use a Linux terminal everyday. I completely forgot it has any ads at all until reading this thread. I have to put conscious effort to find where the ad is. It would be impossible for a daily Windows user to forget their OS has ads. My 2 cents at any rate
  - l33t7332273 3y ago
    I’ve never noticed, which means their “pushing” is at a totally acceptable level.
- mackrevinack 3y ago
  personally i would recommend zorin os before ubuntu since it has a similar desktop layout to windows or if someone doesnt care about that then pop os is decent as well
- biogene 3y ago
  Yes, I'm sure it is. But for me, so is Windows and OSX.
saghm 3y ago
> Somehow we need to find a balance that allows vendors to tightly integrate their apps but prevent abusing this A vendor of a web browser and email client, sure. A vendor of an operating system and one (or both) of a web browser and an email client, hell no. If anything, an operating system should be forced _not_ to tightly integrate to vendor-specific apps and instead should provide integration loosely and in a way a user can plug in their choice of app (or disable entirely).
- Spivak 3y ago
  I do think people like Dolby Atmos, Android Auto, Airdrop, SMB, systemd, the whole of SteamOS and I think when you get down to it "tight integration but I don't like it" is the only definition you'll get that actually will encompass what people mean. Because what makes Springboard on iOS okay when on Android you can have Nova? What makes NFS okay to build in the kernel but not Airdrop? What makes Steam's overlay browser okay to tightly integrate but not Edge? The whole OS is a mess of tightly coupled software with messy boundaries. I don't think the coupling is the thing that matters.
  - clhodapp 3y ago
    Dolby Atmos, at least, sounds good but it's pretty annoying because it's had the practical effect of making height channels proprietary in most systems. Springboard definitely isn't OK. There's no good reason that Airdrop shouldn't be in the Linux kernel and it probably would be if the protocol were well documented. You can use game overlays other than the Steam one, so there's nothing stopping Microsoft from creating an overlay that provides the Edge browser. Rich integrations are great but when the boundary is perceived by the user as being two different programs or systems, both sides of the integration should have well-documented public interfaces that support swapping out the other side (no "private API" funny business).
  - hakfoo 3y ago
    "Tightly integrated" can mean "We designed A and B to fit together well. We built them side by side and tested them together" That's perfectly acceptable and can make a fair direct case to the customer. What's not: * Not allowing controls to manage integrations. Maybe I want to connect A to C, D, or Q instead, or not allow a connection at all. * Accidentally-on-purpose clobbering customer choices (ooh, whoops, we reset all your file associations for the sixth time this year, perhaps now you'll stop changing them). * Using undocumented APIs or similar gimmicks to ensure a competitive product will be inherently hamstrung. * Pretending a seperate product is an indivisible component of the whole. I'm sure there are a bunch of places where Edge could be pulled out in favour of an external help-file/PDF/etc viewer.
foxylad 3y ago
Sad you didn't see Linux as a better alternative to OSX. I credit it with making me at least 10% more productive over the twenty years I've used it, partly because it is stable and fast, but mostly because it isn't trying to sell me stuff while I work.
- smt88 3y ago
  My experience is the opposite. I spent 15 years on Linux desktops until finally switching to Windows for the sake of my producivity. I've seen promoted links in Win10/11, but never anything that harmed my productivity. Most importantly, the OS just fades into the background. I never think about it. Linux required almost-daily googling and opening up a terminal to fix or change something. It became maddening eventually.
  - bachmeier 3y ago
    > Linux required almost-daily googling and opening up a terminal to fix or change something. I usually try to avoid discussions of the OS, since it's such a terribly boring topic. However, this is quite an extraordinary claim that is made without any details. Perhaps you could elaborate. As someone that has used various Linux distros for nearly twenty years, I don't think I could construct a scenario in which someone doing the usual things has to open a terminal to "fix or change something" on a daily basis. It's probably less than once a year that I have to fix anything on my Linux desktop computers. Did you build your own Linux distribution? Were you running IT at a company with 50,000 Linux desktops? Were you testing the development version of a desktop environment?
    - sam345 3y ago
      I believe it. I've used linux desktops for 20 years also and command line is definitely a must on a daily basis. Ive also used Windows and agree that it just fades into background. Windows 10/11 definitely less paiinful on the desktop. These days with better integration with and tools for Linux cli, Windows is definitely my preferred gui productivity environment. Many Linux fans don't know better or won't admit it because hate tends to blind.
zik 3y ago
> I fear what kind of ads Google while shove through if they ever get a dominant market share in desktop OSs Microsoft already forces ads on Windows users so I guess it'd be something like the current situation.
herdcall 3y ago
Yeah, I've been using all kinds of browsers (Chrome, Brave, Edge, now Firefox) on Windows old and new (now on 11), never had any real issues. I don't even remember nudges to use Edge, to be honest, may be there was one after an OS update. Edge is actually really good now, with tight Bing chat integration, but the last dev version has been sluggish on occasion.
S201 3y ago
> Apple seems to be the only sensible alternative. My Arch box has never once tried to display an ad to me, or coerce me to use any particular piece of software for that matter.
- lionkor 3y ago
  I have to +1 very loudly for Arch. It has an absolute dream of a documentation. Any configuration or cache paths are default, the distro doesnt try to fuck with it like Ubuntu and others do - you do `man mytool` or look at the official docs for that tool, and if that says the config is at /etc/monkey/mytool.conf, it is. The package manager works well. The installer is very solid by now. It comes with absolutely nothing preinstalled, perfect for techie people.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    And if one likes the Arch way, but a graphical installer and some things taken care of for you, I recommend EndeavourOS.
SpaceManNabs 3y ago
> but I fear what kind of ads Google while shove through if they ever get a dominant market share in desktop OSs Google is the dominant mobile OS and doesn't cram ads into basic functionality of the device. You won't see ads when opening the app launcher or settings. On Windows 11, you can see ads if you open the start bar.

l33t7332273 3y ago

Ubuntu is very usable for a desktop OS.

petre 3y ago
Except they too pushed ads (ubuntu advantage) and snap and other annoying stuff.
- diffeomorphism 3y ago
  Windows: ads in the start menu, candy crush, hey you are trying to install chrome and I don't like that. Ubuntu: one line message in the terminal about we released <new thing> thing, feel free to try it. Yeah, basically the same thing.
  - c0nducktr 3y ago
    It's the same thing, just one company has taken it further. I realize this is a slippery slope argument, but when there are countless examples of how this slopes is slippery, I think it's a valid point of contention.
    - l33t7332273 3y ago
      I think it’s a very different thing. The slope doesn’t seem particularly slippery. Choosing to be anti-user in your marketing seems like a form line.
    - DirkH 3y ago
      It's not the same thing for the same reason that a shiny billboard for an ad right outside your bedroom window that you can't not see every time you look outside is not the same as a text ad on the first page of a book you want to read. A text ad on the first page of a book is not a slippery slope to a billboard right outside your window. I use a Linux terminal everyday. I completely forgot it has any ads at all until reading this thread. I have to put conscious effort to find where the ad is. It would be impossible for a daily Windows user to forget their OS has ads. My 2 cents at any rate
- l33t7332273 3y ago
  I’ve never noticed, which means their “pushing” is at a totally acceptable level.
mackrevinack 3y ago
personally i would recommend zorin os before ubuntu since it has a similar desktop layout to windows or if someone doesnt care about that then pop os is decent as well
biogene 3y ago
Yes, I'm sure it is. But for me, so is Windows and OSX.

saghm 3y ago

> Somehow we need to find a balance that allows vendors to tightly integrate their apps but prevent abusing this A vendor of a web browser and email client, sure. A vendor of an operating system and one (or both) of a web browser and an email client, hell no. If anything, an operating system should be forced _not_ to tightly integrate to vendor-specific apps and instead should provide integration loosely and in a way a user can plug in their choice of app (or disable entirely).

Spivak 3y ago
I do think people like Dolby Atmos, Android Auto, Airdrop, SMB, systemd, the whole of SteamOS and I think when you get down to it "tight integration but I don't like it" is the only definition you'll get that actually will encompass what people mean. Because what makes Springboard on iOS okay when on Android you can have Nova? What makes NFS okay to build in the kernel but not Airdrop? What makes Steam's overlay browser okay to tightly integrate but not Edge? The whole OS is a mess of tightly coupled software with messy boundaries. I don't think the coupling is the thing that matters.
- clhodapp 3y ago
  Dolby Atmos, at least, sounds good but it's pretty annoying because it's had the practical effect of making height channels proprietary in most systems. Springboard definitely isn't OK. There's no good reason that Airdrop shouldn't be in the Linux kernel and it probably would be if the protocol were well documented. You can use game overlays other than the Steam one, so there's nothing stopping Microsoft from creating an overlay that provides the Edge browser. Rich integrations are great but when the boundary is perceived by the user as being two different programs or systems, both sides of the integration should have well-documented public interfaces that support swapping out the other side (no "private API" funny business).
- hakfoo 3y ago
  "Tightly integrated" can mean "We designed A and B to fit together well. We built them side by side and tested them together" That's perfectly acceptable and can make a fair direct case to the customer. What's not: * Not allowing controls to manage integrations. Maybe I want to connect A to C, D, or Q instead, or not allow a connection at all. * Accidentally-on-purpose clobbering customer choices (ooh, whoops, we reset all your file associations for the sixth time this year, perhaps now you'll stop changing them). * Using undocumented APIs or similar gimmicks to ensure a competitive product will be inherently hamstrung. * Pretending a seperate product is an indivisible component of the whole. I'm sure there are a bunch of places where Edge could be pulled out in favour of an external help-file/PDF/etc viewer.

foxylad 3y ago

Sad you didn't see Linux as a better alternative to OSX. I credit it with making me at least 10% more productive over the twenty years I've used it, partly because it is stable and fast, but mostly because it isn't trying to sell me stuff while I work.

smt88 3y ago
My experience is the opposite. I spent 15 years on Linux desktops until finally switching to Windows for the sake of my producivity. I've seen promoted links in Win10/11, but never anything that harmed my productivity. Most importantly, the OS just fades into the background. I never think about it. Linux required almost-daily googling and opening up a terminal to fix or change something. It became maddening eventually.
- bachmeier 3y ago
  > Linux required almost-daily googling and opening up a terminal to fix or change something. I usually try to avoid discussions of the OS, since it's such a terribly boring topic. However, this is quite an extraordinary claim that is made without any details. Perhaps you could elaborate. As someone that has used various Linux distros for nearly twenty years, I don't think I could construct a scenario in which someone doing the usual things has to open a terminal to "fix or change something" on a daily basis. It's probably less than once a year that I have to fix anything on my Linux desktop computers. Did you build your own Linux distribution? Were you running IT at a company with 50,000 Linux desktops? Were you testing the development version of a desktop environment?
  - sam345 3y ago
    I believe it. I've used linux desktops for 20 years also and command line is definitely a must on a daily basis. Ive also used Windows and agree that it just fades into background. Windows 10/11 definitely less paiinful on the desktop. These days with better integration with and tools for Linux cli, Windows is definitely my preferred gui productivity environment. Many Linux fans don't know better or won't admit it because hate tends to blind.

zik 3y ago

> I fear what kind of ads Google while shove through if they ever get a dominant market share in desktop OSs Microsoft already forces ads on Windows users so I guess it'd be something like the current situation.

herdcall 3y ago

Yeah, I've been using all kinds of browsers (Chrome, Brave, Edge, now Firefox) on Windows old and new (now on 11), never had any real issues. I don't even remember nudges to use Edge, to be honest, may be there was one after an OS update. Edge is actually really good now, with tight Bing chat integration, but the last dev version has been sluggish on occasion.

S201 3y ago

> Apple seems to be the only sensible alternative. My Arch box has never once tried to display an ad to me, or coerce me to use any particular piece of software for that matter.

lionkor 3y ago
I have to +1 very loudly for Arch. It has an absolute dream of a documentation. Any configuration or cache paths are default, the distro doesnt try to fuck with it like Ubuntu and others do - you do `man mytool` or look at the official docs for that tool, and if that says the config is at /etc/monkey/mytool.conf, it is. The package manager works well. The installer is very solid by now. It comes with absolutely nothing preinstalled, perfect for techie people.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  And if one likes the Arch way, but a graphical installer and some things taken care of for you, I recommend EndeavourOS.

SpaceManNabs 3y ago

> but I fear what kind of ads Google while shove through if they ever get a dominant market share in desktop OSs Google is the dominant mobile OS and doesn't cram ads into basic functionality of the device. You won't see ads when opening the app launcher or settings. On Windows 11, you can see ads if you open the start bar.