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> America's Test Kitchen, back when it was good (AKA when Chris was in control), said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors

> America's Test Kitchen, back when it was good (AKA when Chris was in control), said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible. 1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed. 2. What exactly is so special about the colored liquids? What is the chemical make-up of them and their purpose? And are the liquids the same between difference brands? Is the red of one the same as the red as another? Or is the red of one have an equivalent to another (brandA->red = brandB->blue)? Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical: > Chemistry expert and former detergent chemist here, chiming in. Modulo some small semantic differences, you're 100% spot on. Functionally, there is zero difference in the formulations. Every powder dish detergent on the market comprises the same functional components, though the exact chemicals selected may vary. It's always some combination of detergent, anti-deposition agent, water conditioners, strong base, oxidizers, enzymes, buffers, "processing aids", and what I call "foo foo juice" - colors and fragrances. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j-mLhoh4AaABAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...

Blackthorn 3y ago
> 1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed. The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference. > Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical: Uh, yeah, by definition I'm appealing to authority. Namely the authority of the people who did the comparison testing in America's Test Kitchen. That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference. Is the fanciness of ATK any different that CK's Milk Street? Season six of the latter had Jordanian, Brazillian (pizza), Turkish, falafel, Mexican, Greek cuisine; season five had Ethopian, Japan, Ukraine, Crete, etc: * https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/videos https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/video... If anything it's Kimball that seems to have gone in the high falutin' direction. Regardless: if fancy is where the viewers/audience numbers are now, then that's the direction that either/both shows have to go to. What was done in 2010, or whenever, is irrelevant if the landsacape has changed. > That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work. That's fine, but the authority should at least explain why so the more curious viewer could dig into things more. The YT link to the Technology Connections videos is to a comment by a chemists that breaks things down: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j-mLhoh4AaABAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j... For example: > Some pods, such as our top pick and runner-up pick, contain additional liquid cleaning agents in separate chambers that release when the PVA film dissolves. This design keeps liquid and powder separate until they are dispensed, allowing detergent boosters that best operate in liquid form to combine with powder detergent during a dishwasher’s cycle, enhancing their effectiveness. * https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-detergent/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-d...
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting Right. Specifically, its the kind of advice that even if it works on the market at the time it is written, if it gets popular, it is very trivially subject to gaming in the way that gives truth to Goodhart's Law. "More colors of liquid in the pod = sells better" is an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.
- selcuka 3y ago
  > [...] an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition. On the other hand, if they care enough to manufacture the pods with multiple liquid compartments, why not put the good stuff in them? I don't think the chemical composition will meaningfully change the cost.
  - chongli 3y ago
    I think the point is that those pods with all the colours of liquid as well as the tablet of powder at back are actually no more effective than plain old store brand loose powder, yet they cost 5 times as much.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > why not put the good stuff in them? Because the good stuff may cost more than the 'placebo', and given each pod can cost 10-30¢ each, small amounts matter in terms of margin.
vinay_ys 3y ago
Those colored pods made little sense to me. Do those different liquids get released at different times? Saw someone test it out on YouTube that showed not be the case. Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed? If not, then, what's the point?
- mason55 3y ago
  > Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed? Yup this is what it is. My understanding is they have different enzymes that clean better but need to be mixed at the time of washing.

Blackthorn 3y ago

> 1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed. The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference. > Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical: Uh, yeah, by definition I'm appealing to authority. Namely the authority of the people who did the comparison testing in America's Test Kitchen. That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.

throw0101b 3y ago
> The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference. Is the fanciness of ATK any different that CK's Milk Street? Season six of the latter had Jordanian, Brazillian (pizza), Turkish, falafel, Mexican, Greek cuisine; season five had Ethopian, Japan, Ukraine, Crete, etc: * https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/videos https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/video... If anything it's Kimball that seems to have gone in the high falutin' direction. Regardless: if fancy is where the viewers/audience numbers are now, then that's the direction that either/both shows have to go to. What was done in 2010, or whenever, is irrelevant if the landsacape has changed. > That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work. That's fine, but the authority should at least explain why so the more curious viewer could dig into things more. The YT link to the Technology Connections videos is to a comment by a chemists that breaks things down: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j-mLhoh4AaABAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j... For example: > Some pods, such as our top pick and runner-up pick, contain additional liquid cleaning agents in separate chambers that release when the PVA film dissolves. This design keeps liquid and powder separate until they are dispensed, allowing detergent boosters that best operate in liquid form to combine with powder detergent during a dishwasher’s cycle, enhancing their effectiveness. * https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-detergent/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-d...

dragonwriter 3y ago

> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting Right. Specifically, its the kind of advice that even if it works on the market at the time it is written, if it gets popular, it is very trivially subject to gaming in the way that gives truth to Goodhart's Law. "More colors of liquid in the pod = sells better" is an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.

selcuka 3y ago
> [...] an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition. On the other hand, if they care enough to manufacture the pods with multiple liquid compartments, why not put the good stuff in them? I don't think the chemical composition will meaningfully change the cost.
- chongli 3y ago
  I think the point is that those pods with all the colours of liquid as well as the tablet of powder at back are actually no more effective than plain old store brand loose powder, yet they cost 5 times as much.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > why not put the good stuff in them? Because the good stuff may cost more than the 'placebo', and given each pod can cost 10-30¢ each, small amounts matter in terms of margin.

vinay_ys 3y ago

Those colored pods made little sense to me. Do those different liquids get released at different times? Saw someone test it out on YouTube that showed not be the case. Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed? If not, then, what's the point?

mason55 3y ago
> Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed? Yup this is what it is. My understanding is they have different enzymes that clean better but need to be mixed at the time of washing.