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I don’t have experience with GNU/Linux going back that far, but even since 2014 (when I got started with Ubuntu), I’ve seen things get much, much better. These

I don’t have experience with GNU/Linux going back that far, but even since 2014 (when I got started with Ubuntu), I’ve seen things get much, much better. These days my personal and professional daily drivers are, respectively, a 2021 and a 2022 Framework laptop, both with Fedora/GNOME updated regularly. The software is so much more usable than any MS OS since Windows 7, and even MacOS of the past 2-3 years (many people I talk to have remarked on how MacOS quality and usability have been degrading recently). The only pain points I notice with my Framework are not strictly software-related (dislaimer: I don’t play much in terms of modern games anymore); power management/suspend (an atrocity in my experience), and quality of internal peripherals (the mic, webcam, and trackpad are almost useless, so I use just use a dock and external peripherals - and they work great with minimal hassle). Not to sound like a broken record, but 2024 will probably be the year of the GNU/Linux desktop, especially with Framework’s AMD 16-inch laptop with upgradeable GPU making a huge splash, and MS and Apple continuing to alienate developers and power users. I’m actually glad they’re getting worse because it pushes more people toward FOSS - severe but temporary punishment is actually more effective and less cruel than life in prison.

pjmlp 3y ago
I keep reading about XYZ being the reason people will finally flock to GNU/Linux, since Windows XP, instead me and others gave up on the desktop, and went back to Microsoft/Apple/Google offerings. While Valve admitted failure, and has to emulate Windows (yeah not quite emulation), as mechanism to have games on GNU/Linux, not even studios developing Android games with the NDK can be bothered to target GNU/Linux.
- bitwize 3y ago
  The thing that will get Linux over on the desktop is the thing that got Windows over: preinstalls, on almost all models, from all major PC vendors. It'll never happen, but that's what it'll take.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    The netbooks show how well it worked, with every OEM having their own flavour.
  - mpixel 3y ago
    Thing is, people just don't install an OS to begin with - as Torvalds once remarked himself. You don't see Steam Deck users installing Windows, though they very well could, and I'm sure some would prefer to do so, but the experience in that device isn't bad enough - or bad at all for most - for people to bother, likewise the experience of Windows isn't bad enough for people to bother. Framework won't suddenly cause a major shift, simply because they just don't sell that many devices. These kinds of things don't happen in a year.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Actually people are indeed installing Windows on the Steam Deck, and all upcoming competing devices are being based on a Windows 11 core.
    - ralmidani 3y ago
      For me the target is “GNU/Linux is viable and practical for the average user”, not “GNU/Linux has 30% market share”. I haven’t tried System 76 so I don’t know much about GNU/Linux outside the Framework line, but upgradeable graphics in the upcoming 16 inch models means you could dual-boot with Windows for AAA gaming and maybe a handful of Windows-specific apps, and GNU/Linux for machine learning and just about everything else.
      - dijit 3y ago
        If that's your target then we've been there for pretty close to a decade. I set up my mother on Linux mint in 2013~ and she genuinely didn't have issues with it (until the hardware finally kicked the bucket). She had much more issues going from Windows XP to Windows 8, which was something she had to do around the same time for work. This is a reminder that Windows 8 is coming up on 11 years old. :D
- yellowapple 3y ago
  > While Valve admitted failure, and has to emulate Windows That's hardly an admission of failure. No different in practice from "emulating" the JVM or .NET CLR for applications to run that way.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Wow it sounds like you have some barely-usable hunks of crap that just happen to run software and you don't mind if all the peripherals suck and malfunction. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" Seriously, though, I feel you in terms of power management. My memories of my Thinkpad's Fedora days are painful in terms of sleep and hibernate. My Chromebook is bad, of course, Linux under the hood, right? It likes to utterly disobey the lid switch. If I shut the lid it stays awake until otherwise idling out. If the computer is off and I open the lid, it springs to life even before I can hit the Power button. This is Not Supposed to Happen. wcyd?
- ralmidani 3y ago
  The peripherals don’t “malfunction” in the strict sense, they’re just not good. To their credit, the mic and cam do have hard kill switches. Also, the built-in fingerprint reader works great on Ubuntu and Fedora (Fedora even has it integrated with the terminal). For more context, I rarely use laptops in my lap; I work from home and prefer at least some semblance of ergonomics, so for me they’re really just “easily-movable computers” i.e. I can work from the basement when needed, and on the dinner table when the house is empty.
stockerta 3y ago
I started using desktop linux again after a nearly 10 years hiatus on a spare laptop, and as I see, GNOME is getting more stupider by the release. KDE is fine, the devs don't really think they know better what you want, not like the GNOME folks.
eternityforest 3y ago
Linux still has no way to make stuff just work, reliably, every time, aside from containers. Windows has less "Oh look I updated and now Steam doesn't work, and git cola doesn't either" problems. It's usable but doesn't seem to be getting better, Linux prizes quality over compatibility and rewrites things whenever they feel like, in non backwards compatible ways. I really wish there was a Canonical sized company doing exactly what Ubuntu does, but with something like NixOS, or else just Exactly what Debian does, sans dynamic linking so there's less dependencies to have conflicts with.

pjmlp 3y ago

I keep reading about XYZ being the reason people will finally flock to GNU/Linux, since Windows XP, instead me and others gave up on the desktop, and went back to Microsoft/Apple/Google offerings. While Valve admitted failure, and has to emulate Windows (yeah not quite emulation), as mechanism to have games on GNU/Linux, not even studios developing Android games with the NDK can be bothered to target GNU/Linux.

bitwize 3y ago
The thing that will get Linux over on the desktop is the thing that got Windows over: preinstalls, on almost all models, from all major PC vendors. It'll never happen, but that's what it'll take.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  The netbooks show how well it worked, with every OEM having their own flavour.
- mpixel 3y ago
  Thing is, people just don't install an OS to begin with - as Torvalds once remarked himself. You don't see Steam Deck users installing Windows, though they very well could, and I'm sure some would prefer to do so, but the experience in that device isn't bad enough - or bad at all for most - for people to bother, likewise the experience of Windows isn't bad enough for people to bother. Framework won't suddenly cause a major shift, simply because they just don't sell that many devices. These kinds of things don't happen in a year.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Actually people are indeed installing Windows on the Steam Deck, and all upcoming competing devices are being based on a Windows 11 core.
  - ralmidani 3y ago
    For me the target is “GNU/Linux is viable and practical for the average user”, not “GNU/Linux has 30% market share”. I haven’t tried System 76 so I don’t know much about GNU/Linux outside the Framework line, but upgradeable graphics in the upcoming 16 inch models means you could dual-boot with Windows for AAA gaming and maybe a handful of Windows-specific apps, and GNU/Linux for machine learning and just about everything else.
    - dijit 3y ago
      If that's your target then we've been there for pretty close to a decade. I set up my mother on Linux mint in 2013~ and she genuinely didn't have issues with it (until the hardware finally kicked the bucket). She had much more issues going from Windows XP to Windows 8, which was something she had to do around the same time for work. This is a reminder that Windows 8 is coming up on 11 years old. :D
yellowapple 3y ago
> While Valve admitted failure, and has to emulate Windows That's hardly an admission of failure. No different in practice from "emulating" the JVM or .NET CLR for applications to run that way.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

Wow it sounds like you have some barely-usable hunks of crap that just happen to run software and you don't mind if all the peripherals suck and malfunction. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" Seriously, though, I feel you in terms of power management. My memories of my Thinkpad's Fedora days are painful in terms of sleep and hibernate. My Chromebook is bad, of course, Linux under the hood, right? It likes to utterly disobey the lid switch. If I shut the lid it stays awake until otherwise idling out. If the computer is off and I open the lid, it springs to life even before I can hit the Power button. This is Not Supposed to Happen. wcyd?

ralmidani 3y ago
The peripherals don’t “malfunction” in the strict sense, they’re just not good. To their credit, the mic and cam do have hard kill switches. Also, the built-in fingerprint reader works great on Ubuntu and Fedora (Fedora even has it integrated with the terminal). For more context, I rarely use laptops in my lap; I work from home and prefer at least some semblance of ergonomics, so for me they’re really just “easily-movable computers” i.e. I can work from the basement when needed, and on the dinner table when the house is empty.

stockerta 3y ago

I started using desktop linux again after a nearly 10 years hiatus on a spare laptop, and as I see, GNOME is getting more stupider by the release. KDE is fine, the devs don't really think they know better what you want, not like the GNOME folks.

eternityforest 3y ago

Linux still has no way to make stuff just work, reliably, every time, aside from containers. Windows has less "Oh look I updated and now Steam doesn't work, and git cola doesn't either" problems. It's usable but doesn't seem to be getting better, Linux prizes quality over compatibility and rewrites things whenever they feel like, in non backwards compatible ways. I really wish there was a Canonical sized company doing exactly what Ubuntu does, but with something like NixOS, or else just Exactly what Debian does, sans dynamic linking so there's less dependencies to have conflicts with.