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> replacing cars with bikes and trains 1. What if you are disabled and have no train connectivity? 2. What about workers who need to travel by car to build tr

> replacing cars with bikes and trains 1. What if you are disabled and have no train connectivity? 2. What about workers who need to travel by car to build trains? What about support workers who help those workers? And so on? See what happens if we stop virtue signaling and think for a few more seconds? Please stop with this zero-order thinking and spend a few seconds thinking of first-order and second-order effects when what you suggest can impact billions of lives. E.g, Mao and his moronic campaign against birds https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0306422018800259 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0306422018800259

netsharc 3y ago
Your rebuttal scenarios are weak, of course in this fantasy scenario some cars will still be allowed. But yes I do agree about butterfly effects, like in this scenario: https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-covid-19-pandemic-hit-the-cut-flower-chain.html https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-cov... or https://archive.is/0inYa https://archive.is/0inYa Pandemic happened -> Europe went to lockdown -> Restaurants, hotels closed, weddings cancelled -> a drop of flower sales -> Kenyan flower growers suddenly find themselves out of work and out of income (plane-loads of flowers get flown everyday from Africa, M. East and S. America to Europe) Yeah it was probably okay sailing for rich countries that can conjure up debt and give their citizens some relief, but how about for the poorer countries? India had a lockdown and day-wagers had to walk thousands of kilometers home, and the PM's response seemed to be "Not my problem!"
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  > Your rebuttal scenarios are weak, of course in this fantasy scenario some cars will still be allowed. Then > But yes I do agree about butterfly effects, like in this scenario: https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-cov https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-cov... or https://archive.is/0inYa https://archive.is/0inYa > Is the cure really worse than the disease? The health impacts of lockdowns during COVID-19 https://gh.bmj.com/content/6/8/e006653 https://gh.bmj.com/content/6/8/e006653 Rich countries suffered too. https://edpolicyinca.org/newsroom/california-test-scores-show-devastating-impact-pandemic-student-learning https://edpolicyinca.org/newsroom/california-test-scores-sho...
amrocha 3y ago
>What if you are disabled and have no train connectivity? Ok, then you can have a car. Everyone else still can't. >What about workers who need to travel by car to build trains? What about support workers who help those workers? And so on? Company provided shuttle buses. See what happens if we stop virtue signaling and think for a few more seconds?
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  > , then you can have a car See how silly that sounds? These are just two things I thought of quickly. You will end up with ten thousand rules and caveats if we think a bit more. Why wasn't this included in the original comment? If you propose rules, make them at least 50% complete! > Company provided shuttle buses. TIL buses are equal to trains and cycles. Also shuttles will pollute more if they are sparsely occupied which is common. You should read about Mao's idiocy. We shouldn't repeat similar idiocy in 2023.
  - amrocha 3y ago
    Mate, nobody's writing comprehensive laws in the hacker news comment section. Stop engaging in bad faith. The rest of your comment is also wrong, and I'm sure you know why if you stop to think about it for 30 seconds.
acdha 3y ago
> What if you are disabled and have no train connectivity? You likely already have an electric wheelchair or could buy one of the many e-trike or LSV options, and at least the former will benefit greatly from first-class bike infrastructure. This is such a common concern troll talking point but it ignores the fact that many people have disabilities which prevent them from driving (e.g. blindness or epilepsy) or prevent them from having the kind of income needed to own a car, especially if it needs customization for them to use it. Those people are all better off with reduced car infrastructure: access services don’t get stuck in traffic, transit helps everyone, and all kinds of mobility devices benefit from safe car-free spaces.
- zx8080 3y ago
  > You likely already have an electric wheelchair or could buy one of the many e-trike or LSV options, and at least the former will benefit greatly from first-class bike infrastructure. Not very useful during winter. There're places with lots of snow (meters) and temp dropping down to -30F and below. Simply can't bike when snow falls heavily. People live in such places. And their almost exclusive options (except air) are: - cars (unreliable: engine fail or no fuel/battery with hundreds km from the nearest town means death too often when it's -30F) - and railway (very reliable and cheap).
  - acdha 3y ago
    Yes, some people in certain very remote/extreme locations might need an enclosed vehicle. We weren’t focused on that because most of the human population doesn’t live in those conditions, especially in urban areas, but if you want that tangent buses, trains, and enclosed LSVs are all good choices depending on circumstances. If you live in Yakutsk, your needs are already different from 99% of the people in the world in many ways. Remember, nobody is saying that 100% of trips should be on bicycle. We’re saying that we should break the previous century’s default assumption of using a multi-ton vehicle per person for every trip, especially in urban areas where cars make everything worse for everyone including the drivers.

netsharc 3y ago

Your rebuttal scenarios are weak, of course in this fantasy scenario some cars will still be allowed. But yes I do agree about butterfly effects, like in this scenario: https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-covid-19-pandemic-hit-the-cut-flower-chain.html https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-cov... or https://archive.is/0inYa https://archive.is/0inYa Pandemic happened -> Europe went to lockdown -> Restaurants, hotels closed, weddings cancelled -> a drop of flower sales -> Kenyan flower growers suddenly find themselves out of work and out of income (plane-loads of flowers get flown everyday from Africa, M. East and S. America to Europe) Yeah it was probably okay sailing for rich countries that can conjure up debt and give their citizens some relief, but how about for the poorer countries? India had a lockdown and day-wagers had to walk thousands of kilometers home, and the PM's response seemed to be "Not my problem!"

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
> Your rebuttal scenarios are weak, of course in this fantasy scenario some cars will still be allowed. Then > But yes I do agree about butterfly effects, like in this scenario: https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-cov https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-cov... or https://archive.is/0inYa https://archive.is/0inYa > Is the cure really worse than the disease? The health impacts of lockdowns during COVID-19 https://gh.bmj.com/content/6/8/e006653 https://gh.bmj.com/content/6/8/e006653 Rich countries suffered too. https://edpolicyinca.org/newsroom/california-test-scores-show-devastating-impact-pandemic-student-learning https://edpolicyinca.org/newsroom/california-test-scores-sho...

amrocha 3y ago

>What if you are disabled and have no train connectivity? Ok, then you can have a car. Everyone else still can't. >What about workers who need to travel by car to build trains? What about support workers who help those workers? And so on? Company provided shuttle buses. See what happens if we stop virtue signaling and think for a few more seconds?

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
> , then you can have a car See how silly that sounds? These are just two things I thought of quickly. You will end up with ten thousand rules and caveats if we think a bit more. Why wasn't this included in the original comment? If you propose rules, make them at least 50% complete! > Company provided shuttle buses. TIL buses are equal to trains and cycles. Also shuttles will pollute more if they are sparsely occupied which is common. You should read about Mao's idiocy. We shouldn't repeat similar idiocy in 2023.
- amrocha 3y ago
  Mate, nobody's writing comprehensive laws in the hacker news comment section. Stop engaging in bad faith. The rest of your comment is also wrong, and I'm sure you know why if you stop to think about it for 30 seconds.

acdha 3y ago

> What if you are disabled and have no train connectivity? You likely already have an electric wheelchair or could buy one of the many e-trike or LSV options, and at least the former will benefit greatly from first-class bike infrastructure. This is such a common concern troll talking point but it ignores the fact that many people have disabilities which prevent them from driving (e.g. blindness or epilepsy) or prevent them from having the kind of income needed to own a car, especially if it needs customization for them to use it. Those people are all better off with reduced car infrastructure: access services don’t get stuck in traffic, transit helps everyone, and all kinds of mobility devices benefit from safe car-free spaces.

zx8080 3y ago
> You likely already have an electric wheelchair or could buy one of the many e-trike or LSV options, and at least the former will benefit greatly from first-class bike infrastructure. Not very useful during winter. There're places with lots of snow (meters) and temp dropping down to -30F and below. Simply can't bike when snow falls heavily. People live in such places. And their almost exclusive options (except air) are: - cars (unreliable: engine fail or no fuel/battery with hundreds km from the nearest town means death too often when it's -30F) - and railway (very reliable and cheap).
- acdha 3y ago
  Yes, some people in certain very remote/extreme locations might need an enclosed vehicle. We weren’t focused on that because most of the human population doesn’t live in those conditions, especially in urban areas, but if you want that tangent buses, trains, and enclosed LSVs are all good choices depending on circumstances. If you live in Yakutsk, your needs are already different from 99% of the people in the world in many ways. Remember, nobody is saying that 100% of trips should be on bicycle. We’re saying that we should break the previous century’s default assumption of using a multi-ton vehicle per person for every trip, especially in urban areas where cars make everything worse for everyone including the drivers.