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> A group with that much power - to kill a president then get it covered up - is not going to just fade away quietly. It'd have to be a powerful group and power

by lapcat 3y ago

> A group with that much power - to kill a president then get it covered up - is not going to just fade away quietly. It'd have to be a powerful group and powerful groups have a habit of lasting beyond the lives of the members. > If it turned out that there was a conspiracy it is actually quite likely that the group that organised it are still active. I don't think these are correct assumptions. Sixty years is a long time, and the world has changed a lot. The Soviet Union is a shell of its former self (hence the current Ukraine conflict), Fidel Castro is dead, etc. > if it was the Israelis IMO this is one of the dumber and least plausible of the conspiracy theories. What are we even to conclude from this, though? Of course Israel still exists, but what exactly are you trying to imply about the current situation? Netanyahu, by the way, was 14 years old in 1963 and was actually living in Pennsylvania, US at the time. > there'd be no reason to believe they stopped Stopped what?

knowingowl 3y ago
If the JFK and RFK assassinations were done by secret services it seems to make a lot of sense (psychologically) that they'd use people that were the "opposite" of themselves as patsies. So some right-wing CIA people (and their Mafia/Anti-Castro helpers) used a left-wing communist Oswald as the patsy for JFK. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill JFK And then some Jewish Israel Mossad people copycatted for the RFK assassination, using a Muslim Palestinian as their patsy. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill RFK. (And I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm Jewish, so this isn't an antisemitic thing.) But I agree with the point that it mostly doesn't have much impact on the modern world. Whoever was involved in these assassinations doesn't hold power any more. They're dead. No kind of reconciliation process is truly required to prevent this kind of thing in the future. The world has changed and that's why these kind of political assassinations aren't used in the west today. Not because there aren't people that wouldn't love to have this tool. It's just not as viable as it was in the time before mass surveillance and uncontrollable information flows. Try to imagine pulling off the RFK or JFK assassinations with a large number of uncontrolled smartphones posting and even live streaming to the internet.
- barrysteve 3y ago
  Shinzo Abe was killed last year. It's not some grand conspiracy, just some guy with a gun. I can imagine pulling off JFK 2.0... but I don't want to. Surveillance cements consequences. If it was Israel, then who cares? Are we doing diplomacy by assassination now? The reality of politically motivated, err, unpleasantness, has existed forever. Let's not forget the 20yr war that happened straight after 9/11. Less killing the better, and a death in cabinet doesn't always get the change 'the powerful group' may want. I'd be more worried about getting on a submarine with a console controller now.
  - knowingowl 3y ago
    Of course actual unhinged will try to assassinate people. That's to be expected in a world with so many people. What has changed is that covert political assassinations by the secret services of nation states is no longer a viable strategy the way it was when JFK and RFK were killed. Not even the Mossad is good enough to pull it off these days, and they're probably the best in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Ma...
    - barrysteve 3y ago
      True, Mossad directly is probably a stretch. Though if they do it right, we should never know that they did it. Soo.. an intelligence firm that needs to be advertized or spoken of.. is a little strange. As catch rates go up, the more unhinged your assassin needs to be, so why not take a step back and influence the 'unhinged' single adult male, via the internet and never even raise an eyebrow? The atmosphere of ambiguity around the world, is thick and dense lately...
      - knowingowl 3y ago
        The problem with the unhinged is that they're also incompetent, generally. Abe was only susceptible to an unhinged assassin because its Japan and violence/guns are so rare, security is/was so lax. Getting close to Abe, even when he as the PM, was incredibly easy. Hopefully the lesson has been learned there, as it already has been in most other countries. I'm sure the secret services have come up with creative things. The Russians sometimes use poison when abroad, but even that is usually discovered now due to sophisticated hospitals. The old tricks of discrediting, bribing, and blackmailing are probably still just as effective as ever. Maybe more so.

by lapcat 3y ago

knowingowl 3y ago

If the JFK and RFK assassinations were done by secret services it seems to make a lot of sense (psychologically) that they'd use people that were the "opposite" of themselves as patsies. So some right-wing CIA people (and their Mafia/Anti-Castro helpers) used a left-wing communist Oswald as the patsy for JFK. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill JFK And then some Jewish Israel Mossad people copycatted for the RFK assassination, using a Muslim Palestinian as their patsy. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill RFK. (And I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm Jewish, so this isn't an antisemitic thing.) But I agree with the point that it mostly doesn't have much impact on the modern world. Whoever was involved in these assassinations doesn't hold power any more. They're dead. No kind of reconciliation process is truly required to prevent this kind of thing in the future. The world has changed and that's why these kind of political assassinations aren't used in the west today. Not because there aren't people that wouldn't love to have this tool. It's just not as viable as it was in the time before mass surveillance and uncontrollable information flows. Try to imagine pulling off the RFK or JFK assassinations with a large number of uncontrolled smartphones posting and even live streaming to the internet.

barrysteve 3y ago
Shinzo Abe was killed last year. It's not some grand conspiracy, just some guy with a gun. I can imagine pulling off JFK 2.0... but I don't want to. Surveillance cements consequences. If it was Israel, then who cares? Are we doing diplomacy by assassination now? The reality of politically motivated, err, unpleasantness, has existed forever. Let's not forget the 20yr war that happened straight after 9/11. Less killing the better, and a death in cabinet doesn't always get the change 'the powerful group' may want. I'd be more worried about getting on a submarine with a console controller now.
- knowingowl 3y ago
  Of course actual unhinged will try to assassinate people. That's to be expected in a world with so many people. What has changed is that covert political assassinations by the secret services of nation states is no longer a viable strategy the way it was when JFK and RFK were killed. Not even the Mossad is good enough to pull it off these days, and they're probably the best in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Mabhouh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahmoud_Al-Ma...
  - barrysteve 3y ago
    True, Mossad directly is probably a stretch. Though if they do it right, we should never know that they did it. Soo.. an intelligence firm that needs to be advertized or spoken of.. is a little strange. As catch rates go up, the more unhinged your assassin needs to be, so why not take a step back and influence the 'unhinged' single adult male, via the internet and never even raise an eyebrow? The atmosphere of ambiguity around the world, is thick and dense lately...
    - knowingowl 3y ago
      The problem with the unhinged is that they're also incompetent, generally. Abe was only susceptible to an unhinged assassin because its Japan and violence/guns are so rare, security is/was so lax. Getting close to Abe, even when he as the PM, was incredibly easy. Hopefully the lesson has been learned there, as it already has been in most other countries. I'm sure the secret services have come up with creative things. The Russians sometimes use poison when abroad, but even that is usually discovered now due to sophisticated hospitals. The old tricks of discrediting, bribing, and blackmailing are probably still just as effective as ever. Maybe more so.