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All true. It goes even farther: hiding the file structure, and even the concept of files. Ask a nontechnical Windows or Mac user where their files are stored -

All true. It goes even farther: hiding the file structure, and even the concept of files. Ask a nontechnical Windows or Mac user where their files are stored - they have no idea. Ask if they are in the cloud - no idea. Worse - just as with UIs - there is no consistency where different apps store their data. We also shouldn't forget the idiocy of hiding file-extensions. To add insult to injury Windows lies to non-English speakers. In German, for example, it will tell you your home directory is in "Benutzer", but there actually is no such directory, there is only "Users". These attempts to hide complexity wind up creating confusion and more complexity.

ben_w 3y ago
> In German, for example, it will tell you your home directory is in "Benutzer", but there actually is no such directory, there is only "Users". Fantastisch. /s Reminds me of a different issue we had back at my first permanent iOS role. We wrote about a "button" in the app description, the German translation of which is "Knopf"; this triggered Apple's naughty word filter, presumably because "Knopf" is also a translation of "knob", but "Knopf" doesn't have the penile connotations in German that "knob" has in English.
thetomcraig 3y ago
> Ask a nontechnical Windows or Mac user where their files are stored - they have no idea. This. The move towards “everything on the cloud” was a double edged sword for non-power users. It’s great that you don’t have to make Grandma plug in a external USB drive and use Time Machine, but yes nobody knows where things are anymore. Does Grandma know what “the cloud” even is? I feel like Apple is the biggest proponent of moving away from the idea of “files” and having your “content” be something you shuttle around between different apps. But each one has a slightly different “share” and “import” and “export” paradigm as well. And now there is an iCloud Drive “files” app! What does that mean? And how do I know if it’s on my phone or I’m just seeing a representation of what’s on my iCloud Drive? Does the cloud icon mean I’ve downloaded it or not, what if it’s it slightly dark gray or slightly light gray? </rant>
grishka 3y ago
> We also shouldn't forget the idiocy of hiding file-extensions. That must be the number one reason why .jpg.exe with a jpg-looking icon still works on a surprising number of people. And that's with even the most non-technical users knowing what file extensions are and how they work.
twarge 3y ago
It’s all about files. That we have a photos app with a custom database is an obvious failure of the OS file system. Why didn’t the BeOS approach work?
- didntcheck 3y ago
  Yeah, people keep complaining that apps are hiding the concept of a hierarchical FS from the user, but honestly I can understand why they do it. The hierarchical model just isn't a very good model for almost any nontrivial (i.e. 1-dimensional) logical model of data. For all we rightly complain about how much time is spent reinventing CRUD programs that simply list your files in a relational interface, few people seem to ask why we keep feeling the need to do that Proper use of file attributes could help a lot, but while almost all modern OSes and FSes support them, AFAIK only MacOS makes much non-system use of them, and they have poor portability across systems. Even copying a file can lose them if the utility is not aware of them
ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
And even if you do launch Explorer and start looking for your files, you'll find... what, THREE copies of your home-directory structure, two of which are "forbidden?" WTF is all that shit, Microsoft? Oh and another Explorer regression: It used to show little "+" signs next to directories that actually contained things. Microsoft GOT RID OF THOSE. Oh... unless you happen to roll your cursor through the left pane. Then they inexplicably appear. Or did MS regress even further, from the universally-understood "+" symbol to idiotic triangles? You can't even keep up with all of the regressions at this point.
eternityforest 3y ago
Seems like it would be easy enough to have first class translations at the file system API levels, so you could make a FileSystemInterface class and choose if you wanted to have standard or translated names, or stay compatible with both. Or you could have Benutzer be a symlink to Users(which could then be hidden), so that it is still "real" and fully compatible all the time.
jcarrano 3y ago
I see people losing files in Windows all the time.

ben_w 3y ago

> In German, for example, it will tell you your home directory is in "Benutzer", but there actually is no such directory, there is only "Users". Fantastisch. /s Reminds me of a different issue we had back at my first permanent iOS role. We wrote about a "button" in the app description, the German translation of which is "Knopf"; this triggered Apple's naughty word filter, presumably because "Knopf" is also a translation of "knob", but "Knopf" doesn't have the penile connotations in German that "knob" has in English.

thetomcraig 3y ago

> Ask a nontechnical Windows or Mac user where their files are stored - they have no idea. This. The move towards “everything on the cloud” was a double edged sword for non-power users. It’s great that you don’t have to make Grandma plug in a external USB drive and use Time Machine, but yes nobody knows where things are anymore. Does Grandma know what “the cloud” even is? I feel like Apple is the biggest proponent of moving away from the idea of “files” and having your “content” be something you shuttle around between different apps. But each one has a slightly different “share” and “import” and “export” paradigm as well. And now there is an iCloud Drive “files” app! What does that mean? And how do I know if it’s on my phone or I’m just seeing a representation of what’s on my iCloud Drive? Does the cloud icon mean I’ve downloaded it or not, what if it’s it slightly dark gray or slightly light gray? </rant>

grishka 3y ago

> We also shouldn't forget the idiocy of hiding file-extensions. That must be the number one reason why .jpg.exe with a jpg-looking icon still works on a surprising number of people. And that's with even the most non-technical users knowing what file extensions are and how they work.

twarge 3y ago

It’s all about files. That we have a photos app with a custom database is an obvious failure of the OS file system. Why didn’t the BeOS approach work?

didntcheck 3y ago
Yeah, people keep complaining that apps are hiding the concept of a hierarchical FS from the user, but honestly I can understand why they do it. The hierarchical model just isn't a very good model for almost any nontrivial (i.e. 1-dimensional) logical model of data. For all we rightly complain about how much time is spent reinventing CRUD programs that simply list your files in a relational interface, few people seem to ask why we keep feeling the need to do that Proper use of file attributes could help a lot, but while almost all modern OSes and FSes support them, AFAIK only MacOS makes much non-system use of them, and they have poor portability across systems. Even copying a file can lose them if the utility is not aware of them

ShadowBanThis01 3y ago

And even if you do launch Explorer and start looking for your files, you'll find... what, THREE copies of your home-directory structure, two of which are "forbidden?" WTF is all that shit, Microsoft? Oh and another Explorer regression: It used to show little "+" signs next to directories that actually contained things. Microsoft GOT RID OF THOSE. Oh... unless you happen to roll your cursor through the left pane. Then they inexplicably appear. Or did MS regress even further, from the universally-understood "+" symbol to idiotic triangles? You can't even keep up with all of the regressions at this point.

eternityforest 3y ago

Seems like it would be easy enough to have first class translations at the file system API levels, so you could make a FileSystemInterface class and choose if you wanted to have standard or translated names, or stay compatible with both. Or you could have Benutzer be a symlink to Users(which could then be hidden), so that it is still "real" and fully compatible all the time.

jcarrano 3y ago

I see people losing files in Windows all the time.