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The problem with conversations about this topic and similar topics (9/11) is that almost no-one who cares about the topic deeply enough to have an argument abou

The problem with conversations about this topic and similar topics (9/11) is that almost no-one who cares about the topic deeply enough to have an argument about it online is interested because they're just super into ballistics and forensics and don't care about the political implications. It's all motivated reasoning because they don't like the _implications_ of the official story for whatever reason (or, alternatively, the conspiratorial reading), or they're selling something to the people who don't like the official story (or the conspiracy). You think you're having an argument with someone about the facts and what you're actually doing is having a conversation with someone who is deeply invested in defending their _entire world view_ which means they just can't accept whatever argument you're trying to make. You can go after each argument they make and dispense with them in turn, and they'll continue to invent new ones -- for decades if they have to. It's like trying to argue with a christian fundamentalist about the logical impossibilities of noah's ark. And it really doesn't matter _who is right_. Nobody is going to be arguing in good faith about it. Probably if you're about to comment on this post, you've got some motivated reasoning behind it that has nothing to do with finding out what really happened.

jddj 3y ago
And sadly the list of topics for which this is an excellent description of human behaviour seems to grow steadily.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lapcat 3y ago
> Probably if you're about to comment on this post, you've got some motivated reasoning behind it that has nothing to do with finding out what really happened. I'm not sure that's true in this case. I remember 9/11, but I wasn't even born yet when the Kennedy assassination happened. I doubt that many people under age 70 remember that personally. It doesn't really have emotional salience for most people now. For me, it's merely a curiosity, and I can't say that the truth of the matter is important to me either way. Even if there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I don't see how it's relevant to current politics, and the possible players involved are no longer relevant either. Joe Biden himself, old as he is, was only 21 at the time and still in college.
- roenxi 3y ago
  > Even if there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I don't see how it's relevant to current politics... A group with that much power - to kill a president then get it covered up - is not going to just fade away quietly. It'd have to be a powerful group and powerful groups have a habit of lasting beyond the lives of the members. If it turned out that there was a conspiracy it is actually quite likely that the group that organised it are still active. Picking on one from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_... that would make a good story ... if it was the Israelis there'd be no reason to believe they stopped. It'd put Jeff Epstein's kompromat operation in a new light if they were trying to manage US politics.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > A group with that much power - to kill a president then get it covered up - is not going to just fade away quietly. It'd have to be a powerful group and powerful groups have a habit of lasting beyond the lives of the members. > If it turned out that there was a conspiracy it is actually quite likely that the group that organised it are still active. I don't think these are correct assumptions. Sixty years is a long time, and the world has changed a lot. The Soviet Union is a shell of its former self (hence the current Ukraine conflict), Fidel Castro is dead, etc. > if it was the Israelis IMO this is one of the dumber and least plausible of the conspiracy theories. What are we even to conclude from this, though? Of course Israel still exists, but what exactly are you trying to imply about the current situation? Netanyahu, by the way, was 14 years old in 1963 and was actually living in Pennsylvania, US at the time. > there'd be no reason to believe they stopped Stopped what?
    - knowingowl 3y ago
      If the JFK and RFK assassinations were done by secret services it seems to make a lot of sense (psychologically) that they'd use people that were the "opposite" of themselves as patsies. So some right-wing CIA people (and their Mafia/Anti-Castro helpers) used a left-wing communist Oswald as the patsy for JFK. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill JFK And then some Jewish Israel Mossad people copycatted for the RFK assassination, using a Muslim Palestinian as their patsy. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill RFK. (And I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm Jewish, so this isn't an antisemitic thing.) But I agree with the point that it mostly doesn't have much impact on the modern world. Whoever was involved in these assassinations doesn't hold power any more. They're dead. No kind of reconciliation process is truly required to prevent this kind of thing in the future. The world has changed and that's why these kind of political assassinations aren't used in the west today. Not because there aren't people that wouldn't love to have this tool. It's just not as viable as it was in the time before mass surveillance and uncontrollable information flows. Try to imagine pulling off the RFK or JFK assassinations with a large number of uncontrolled smartphones posting and even live streaming to the internet.
dontlaugh 3y ago
Exactly. How a CIA faction used Cuban exiles to assassinate him is far less interesting than why.
- knowingowl 3y ago
  The "why" (motive) is the most clear part: JFK was not willing to invade Cuba and depose Castro. To say this this really pissed off the DoD, CIA, Mafia, and Cuban rebels is putting it extremely mildly. They hated JFK with a murderous passion.
Apocryphon 3y ago
Eh, at this point with all of the myths and legends surrounding the JFK assassination, it would be novel if even something as banal as the friendly fire theory turned out to be true. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-flna2D11634276 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accidental-assassin-jfk...
knowingowl 3y ago
"Nobody is going to be arguing in good faith about it." Saying that "nobody" is willing to discuss this in good faith is going way too far. Just because I don't expect anyone to be able to convince me that it wasn't a conspiracy doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility. All good faith means, in this context, is that one is willing to maintain intellectual honesty. That may be hard for many but far from all.
adolph 3y ago
> Probably if you're about to comment on this post, you've got some motivated reasoning behind it that has nothing to do with finding out what really happened. Is that a recursive statement or are you somehow the only one with clean hands?
colordrops 3y ago
That's true of most topics. This one is just more heated because of the historical significance and lack of direct evidence.
JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
Not one word of what you just wrote is accurate. Source: [0] [0] I pulled it out of my ass, same as you did.
lost_tourist 3y ago
This seems like one outlook but either case wouldn't drastically change my skepticism of government. That it happened exactly as the official report says or it turns out that the CIA lied and there was a second shooter. I've seen an attempted coup (and the GOP attempt to minimize that and continued support of the dictator-in-waiting) which I thought would never happen in my lifetime despite noticing the polarization we're all seeing. Nothing really surprises me much any longer when it comes to politics and how dirty it can be or if they didn't lie at all.

jddj 3y ago

And sadly the list of topics for which this is an excellent description of human behaviour seems to grow steadily.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

lapcat 3y ago

> Probably if you're about to comment on this post, you've got some motivated reasoning behind it that has nothing to do with finding out what really happened. I'm not sure that's true in this case. I remember 9/11, but I wasn't even born yet when the Kennedy assassination happened. I doubt that many people under age 70 remember that personally. It doesn't really have emotional salience for most people now. For me, it's merely a curiosity, and I can't say that the truth of the matter is important to me either way. Even if there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I don't see how it's relevant to current politics, and the possible players involved are no longer relevant either. Joe Biden himself, old as he is, was only 21 at the time and still in college.

roenxi 3y ago
> Even if there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I don't see how it's relevant to current politics... A group with that much power - to kill a president then get it covered up - is not going to just fade away quietly. It'd have to be a powerful group and powerful groups have a habit of lasting beyond the lives of the members. If it turned out that there was a conspiracy it is actually quite likely that the group that organised it are still active. Picking on one from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_... that would make a good story ... if it was the Israelis there'd be no reason to believe they stopped. It'd put Jeff Epstein's kompromat operation in a new light if they were trying to manage US politics.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > A group with that much power - to kill a president then get it covered up - is not going to just fade away quietly. It'd have to be a powerful group and powerful groups have a habit of lasting beyond the lives of the members. > If it turned out that there was a conspiracy it is actually quite likely that the group that organised it are still active. I don't think these are correct assumptions. Sixty years is a long time, and the world has changed a lot. The Soviet Union is a shell of its former self (hence the current Ukraine conflict), Fidel Castro is dead, etc. > if it was the Israelis IMO this is one of the dumber and least plausible of the conspiracy theories. What are we even to conclude from this, though? Of course Israel still exists, but what exactly are you trying to imply about the current situation? Netanyahu, by the way, was 14 years old in 1963 and was actually living in Pennsylvania, US at the time. > there'd be no reason to believe they stopped Stopped what?
  - knowingowl 3y ago
    If the JFK and RFK assassinations were done by secret services it seems to make a lot of sense (psychologically) that they'd use people that were the "opposite" of themselves as patsies. So some right-wing CIA people (and their Mafia/Anti-Castro helpers) used a left-wing communist Oswald as the patsy for JFK. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill JFK And then some Jewish Israel Mossad people copycatted for the RFK assassination, using a Muslim Palestinian as their patsy. There was a lot of motive for these people to kill RFK. (And I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm Jewish, so this isn't an antisemitic thing.) But I agree with the point that it mostly doesn't have much impact on the modern world. Whoever was involved in these assassinations doesn't hold power any more. They're dead. No kind of reconciliation process is truly required to prevent this kind of thing in the future. The world has changed and that's why these kind of political assassinations aren't used in the west today. Not because there aren't people that wouldn't love to have this tool. It's just not as viable as it was in the time before mass surveillance and uncontrollable information flows. Try to imagine pulling off the RFK or JFK assassinations with a large number of uncontrolled smartphones posting and even live streaming to the internet.

dontlaugh 3y ago

Exactly. How a CIA faction used Cuban exiles to assassinate him is far less interesting than why.

knowingowl 3y ago
The "why" (motive) is the most clear part: JFK was not willing to invade Cuba and depose Castro. To say this this really pissed off the DoD, CIA, Mafia, and Cuban rebels is putting it extremely mildly. They hated JFK with a murderous passion.

Apocryphon 3y ago

Eh, at this point with all of the myths and legends surrounding the JFK assassination, it would be novel if even something as banal as the friendly fire theory turned out to be true. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-flna2D11634276 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accidental-assassin-jfk...

knowingowl 3y ago

"Nobody is going to be arguing in good faith about it." Saying that "nobody" is willing to discuss this in good faith is going way too far. Just because I don't expect anyone to be able to convince me that it wasn't a conspiracy doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility. All good faith means, in this context, is that one is willing to maintain intellectual honesty. That may be hard for many but far from all.

adolph 3y ago

> Probably if you're about to comment on this post, you've got some motivated reasoning behind it that has nothing to do with finding out what really happened. Is that a recursive statement or are you somehow the only one with clean hands?

colordrops 3y ago

That's true of most topics. This one is just more heated because of the historical significance and lack of direct evidence.

JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago

Not one word of what you just wrote is accurate. Source: [0] [0] I pulled it out of my ass, same as you did.

lost_tourist 3y ago

This seems like one outlook but either case wouldn't drastically change my skepticism of government. That it happened exactly as the official report says or it turns out that the CIA lied and there was a second shooter. I've seen an attempted coup (and the GOP attempt to minimize that and continued support of the dictator-in-waiting) which I thought would never happen in my lifetime despite noticing the polarization we're all seeing. Nothing really surprises me much any longer when it comes to politics and how dirty it can be or if they didn't lie at all.