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So is lithium Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/s

So is lithium Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=A%20Review%20of%20the%20Current,8%20million%20tons%20of%20waste https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/li.... So, not renewable

somewhat_drunk 3y ago
I can't tell if you actually believe your logic is sound or you're just trolling.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  A bit of both. I'm trying to say that it's not so cut and dry. Making lithium batteries and thr mining of lithium is a messy business. It's not a panacea. We need to be honest and realistic about the costs of doing that business, and often we arent. 75% of all aluminum every smelted is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines.
  - zaroth 3y ago
    A chokehold on new mining of a crucial ore for renewables sounds like a terrible overall idea. The lifecycle of the lithium that will come from this hypothetical mine is probably 20 years from now until the first time the material will be recycled. The highly profitable recycling logistics will have been fully worked out a decade before it’s needed for a new mine’s output.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      This is reducto ad absurdum. I'm not proposing that. I'm proposing we put equal effort into both. My expectation is that we don't currently. 75% of all aluminum ever made is still in use. We should be able to do that with lithium too.
      - zaroth 3y ago
        I was responding to when you said “before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines”. The recycling effort is highly profitable, there’s little need to subsidize it. It will simply grow and consume all available supply. Large scale lithium battery storage is still truly just getting started. We need to be super smart with lining up supply for essential inputs for growth.
        iancmceachern 3y ago
        Then why hasn't it been keeping up? It seems that lithium recycling is way behind exploration and mining. Why? It's highly profitable as you say, are there technology limitations?
        Sabinus 3y ago
        There isn't enough material yet for a large robust recycling industry, and collection of small batteries is still an issue.
gibolt 3y ago
While the 5% number may be presently accurate, it is mainly for tiny Lithium batteries. Those from vehicles are of very large + high value, and will likely end up well above 95% recycling rate whenever it is time for them to be scrapped. This also ignores the large number of those batteries that will be re-used in grid storage after being removed from a car, and eventually recycled.
scythe 3y ago
>Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: >5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled Whether something is currently recycled and whether it can be recycled are two different questions. For a long time, copper wasn't recycled very often. Then the price went up, and now it's very valuable trash. Lithium is absolutely renewable. It may not be renewed, but it is renewable.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  Agreed. Let's put more effort into getting that 5% up to 100%, that's where the real effort and headlines should focus. 75% of all aluminum ever produced is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level
  - gibolt 3y ago
    As the value goes up, companies that sort trash and recycling will be incentivized to separate the electronics, and claim the value as an extra revenue stream.

somewhat_drunk 3y ago

I can't tell if you actually believe your logic is sound or you're just trolling.

iancmceachern 3y ago
A bit of both. I'm trying to say that it's not so cut and dry. Making lithium batteries and thr mining of lithium is a messy business. It's not a panacea. We need to be honest and realistic about the costs of doing that business, and often we arent. 75% of all aluminum every smelted is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines.
- zaroth 3y ago
  A chokehold on new mining of a crucial ore for renewables sounds like a terrible overall idea. The lifecycle of the lithium that will come from this hypothetical mine is probably 20 years from now until the first time the material will be recycled. The highly profitable recycling logistics will have been fully worked out a decade before it’s needed for a new mine’s output.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    This is reducto ad absurdum. I'm not proposing that. I'm proposing we put equal effort into both. My expectation is that we don't currently. 75% of all aluminum ever made is still in use. We should be able to do that with lithium too.
    - zaroth 3y ago
      I was responding to when you said “before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines”. The recycling effort is highly profitable, there’s little need to subsidize it. It will simply grow and consume all available supply. Large scale lithium battery storage is still truly just getting started. We need to be super smart with lining up supply for essential inputs for growth.
      - iancmceachern 3y ago
        Then why hasn't it been keeping up? It seems that lithium recycling is way behind exploration and mining. Why? It's highly profitable as you say, are there technology limitations?
        Sabinus 3y ago
        There isn't enough material yet for a large robust recycling industry, and collection of small batteries is still an issue.

gibolt 3y ago

While the 5% number may be presently accurate, it is mainly for tiny Lithium batteries. Those from vehicles are of very large + high value, and will likely end up well above 95% recycling rate whenever it is time for them to be scrapped. This also ignores the large number of those batteries that will be re-used in grid storage after being removed from a car, and eventually recycled.

scythe 3y ago

>Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: >5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled Whether something is currently recycled and whether it can be recycled are two different questions. For a long time, copper wasn't recycled very often. Then the price went up, and now it's very valuable trash. Lithium is absolutely renewable. It may not be renewed, but it is renewable.

iancmceachern 3y ago
Agreed. Let's put more effort into getting that 5% up to 100%, that's where the real effort and headlines should focus. 75% of all aluminum ever produced is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level
- gibolt 3y ago
  As the value goes up, companies that sort trash and recycling will be incentivized to separate the electronics, and claim the value as an extra revenue stream.