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There are many people like me that see city life as almost full dystopian. My health improves if I don't live around many people and if I have room for a large

There are many people like me that see city life as almost full dystopian. My health improves if I don't live around many people and if I have room for a large garden for food, both human and pollinators. I am most happy if light pollution is almost non-extant (so are nocturnal and crepuscular critters). I understand the attractiveness of the walk-able city to some. I hope you (and other of your kind) can come to accept that there are others that have different needs for living space.

epistasis 3y ago
> I hope you (and other of your kind) can come to accept that there are others that have different needs for living space. Is this some sort of weird projection? My preferred way of life is legally banned, and you want to keep it banned, so you assume I want to ban your way of life? Furthermore, the more of my lifestyle, which is compact, the easier it is to maintain empty space that you prefer. Clearly you view me as an enemy, but I do not view you as one. I do not wish to make your way of life illegal, and only expressed a view that my preferred way of life should be legal. I am flabbergasted by your comment, honestly.
- rickydroll 3y ago
  > Is this some sort of weird projection? My preferred way of life is legally banned, and you want to keep it banned, so you assume I want to ban your way of life? It is a comment on a lack of empathy for different way of living. I don't want to ban your preferred way of living as long as it does not pollute my night sky with light, block my sun, or keep my from traveling to where I want, when I want. > Clearly you view me as an enemy, but I do not view you as one. I do not wish to make your way of life illegal, and only expressed a view that my preferred way of life should be legal. No, I do not see you as an enemy either. this is a conversation with lots of nuances that are lost. I believe the loss of nuance has led people pro and con on the 15 min city model to be hostile to the opposing view. I'm trying to find a way to say, I support you having your 15 minute model, I hope you will support my not wanting it or at the least, don't force it on me. I am assuming that when you say your way of life is legally banned, you are referring to zoning regulations. Changing zoning regs means you are going to need to become part of your local government. I suggest you go to planning board meetings. Listen a lot, ask polite, questions. Remember these people are not getting paid enough for all the shit they get thrown at them. No matter what decision they make, somebody will be in their face about it. Please remember, it I'm not your enemy, most of them are not either. Once they get to know you, volunteering for subcommittees will give you experience for dealing with town/city government. Then you can have a shot at a planning board seat and have the knowledge to make effective change. zoning laws only change from the inside. so, get on the inside, and make change happen!
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Who is the one with the lack of empathy here? You assumed that I had zero empathy and wanted to get rid of your way of life, on what evidence? Merely because I could conceive of a lifestyle that didn't depend on cars? Your comments on zoning are incredibly naive. It's not just zoning, it's building code like parking requirements, etc. It's the entire legal structure, culture, and attitude of those with power. I am involved in multiple different dues paying organizations that work to change zoning (not for my dream of a car-free neighborhood, but other reasons), and changing zoning is not the work of a motivated individual, it's the work of teams of highly organized volunteers working to provide some sort of alternative to the hoards of angry residents that harass city employees, yell, and become the most unpleasant people at the mere though of more neighbors. The creation of a car-free neighborhood is a legal effort that is an order of magnitude more difficult than getting a zoning change. There are so many roadblocks. That's why it's easier to solve computer vision than it is to create a car free neighborhood. The legal system is welcoming to entirely new cars with computer drivers. It is not yet ready to accommodate car-free neighborhoods.
    - rickydroll 3y ago
      I tried to describe the general attitude expressed by the 15 minute city advocates. Maybe I haven't tuned my wording right yet so let me be blunt. It's not about you. Stop personalizing it. on zoning: parking Requirements: defined by zoning regulations legal structure: built to enforce existing zoning regulations General Building code: 99% driven by safety and good engineering practice. Usually most of the building codes come from standard-setting organizations such as the National Fire Prevention Association. https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards. Many municipalities accept these regulations as is because some have been sued for not following published building codes when something fails and somebody dies. attitude of those with power: get into the power structure in the way they'll accept, get elected and then you have the power. Need for teams of people: you underestimate the impact of very small number of people can have on regulation at the municipal level. Angry horde: that will not change until you shift the Overton window on their perception in a nonconfrontational way. this is why I advocate for starting with rebuilding the urban core with high density living space. You can sell it to them much more easily because: it doesn't threaten their environment, it wouldn't increase car traffic, it wouldn't significantly increase load on the city core, increase the development of more entertainment offerings in the core. for me, where the biggest wins would be getting rid of the crappy old slumlord housing. It breaks my heart to see kids with almost no exposure to nature living in housing surrounded by asphalt. That's another thing about bulk housing, the green spaces usually manicured patches of grass that you can't play on. This should be big patches of native plants and places where kids can get dirty on clean soil. Maybe even an embedded community garden. Most importantly, don't light the place up like it was Times Square. In a nearby city, there was a significant disaster in trying to increase housing density. They chose to go the ADU route. Because it violated all of the rules I laid out above, there was a massive citizen uprising and rejection of this plan. Your bigger barrier is going to be commercial groups. I've seen astronomy groups trying to get in place Light pollution control regulation at the state level. A single local lighting manufacturer has managed to spike that regulation every single time for the past 15 years. On the other hand, individuals have been successful at putting in light pollution control measures into local building codes. Hear me clearly. Single individuals have made these changes happen. How? By getting to know the people in the planning board, being polite, nonconfrontational, presenting clear rational information and most importantly not being dogmatic rigid advocates. Individuals or small (2-3) Groups of individuals have been successful in changing conservation Board attitudes and regulations that accepted by the planning board. I wrote what I did because of practical real-world examples. my experience is very different from what you have described so far. since your approach isn't working, would you consider a different approach?

epistasis 3y ago

> I hope you (and other of your kind) can come to accept that there are others that have different needs for living space. Is this some sort of weird projection? My preferred way of life is legally banned, and you want to keep it banned, so you assume I want to ban your way of life? Furthermore, the more of my lifestyle, which is compact, the easier it is to maintain empty space that you prefer. Clearly you view me as an enemy, but I do not view you as one. I do not wish to make your way of life illegal, and only expressed a view that my preferred way of life should be legal. I am flabbergasted by your comment, honestly.

rickydroll 3y ago
> Is this some sort of weird projection? My preferred way of life is legally banned, and you want to keep it banned, so you assume I want to ban your way of life? It is a comment on a lack of empathy for different way of living. I don't want to ban your preferred way of living as long as it does not pollute my night sky with light, block my sun, or keep my from traveling to where I want, when I want. > Clearly you view me as an enemy, but I do not view you as one. I do not wish to make your way of life illegal, and only expressed a view that my preferred way of life should be legal. No, I do not see you as an enemy either. this is a conversation with lots of nuances that are lost. I believe the loss of nuance has led people pro and con on the 15 min city model to be hostile to the opposing view. I'm trying to find a way to say, I support you having your 15 minute model, I hope you will support my not wanting it or at the least, don't force it on me. I am assuming that when you say your way of life is legally banned, you are referring to zoning regulations. Changing zoning regs means you are going to need to become part of your local government. I suggest you go to planning board meetings. Listen a lot, ask polite, questions. Remember these people are not getting paid enough for all the shit they get thrown at them. No matter what decision they make, somebody will be in their face about it. Please remember, it I'm not your enemy, most of them are not either. Once they get to know you, volunteering for subcommittees will give you experience for dealing with town/city government. Then you can have a shot at a planning board seat and have the knowledge to make effective change. zoning laws only change from the inside. so, get on the inside, and make change happen!
- epistasis 3y ago
  Who is the one with the lack of empathy here? You assumed that I had zero empathy and wanted to get rid of your way of life, on what evidence? Merely because I could conceive of a lifestyle that didn't depend on cars? Your comments on zoning are incredibly naive. It's not just zoning, it's building code like parking requirements, etc. It's the entire legal structure, culture, and attitude of those with power. I am involved in multiple different dues paying organizations that work to change zoning (not for my dream of a car-free neighborhood, but other reasons), and changing zoning is not the work of a motivated individual, it's the work of teams of highly organized volunteers working to provide some sort of alternative to the hoards of angry residents that harass city employees, yell, and become the most unpleasant people at the mere though of more neighbors. The creation of a car-free neighborhood is a legal effort that is an order of magnitude more difficult than getting a zoning change. There are so many roadblocks. That's why it's easier to solve computer vision than it is to create a car free neighborhood. The legal system is welcoming to entirely new cars with computer drivers. It is not yet ready to accommodate car-free neighborhoods.
  - rickydroll 3y ago
    I tried to describe the general attitude expressed by the 15 minute city advocates. Maybe I haven't tuned my wording right yet so let me be blunt. It's not about you. Stop personalizing it. on zoning: parking Requirements: defined by zoning regulations legal structure: built to enforce existing zoning regulations General Building code: 99% driven by safety and good engineering practice. Usually most of the building codes come from standard-setting organizations such as the National Fire Prevention Association. https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards. Many municipalities accept these regulations as is because some have been sued for not following published building codes when something fails and somebody dies. attitude of those with power: get into the power structure in the way they'll accept, get elected and then you have the power. Need for teams of people: you underestimate the impact of very small number of people can have on regulation at the municipal level. Angry horde: that will not change until you shift the Overton window on their perception in a nonconfrontational way. this is why I advocate for starting with rebuilding the urban core with high density living space. You can sell it to them much more easily because: it doesn't threaten their environment, it wouldn't increase car traffic, it wouldn't significantly increase load on the city core, increase the development of more entertainment offerings in the core. for me, where the biggest wins would be getting rid of the crappy old slumlord housing. It breaks my heart to see kids with almost no exposure to nature living in housing surrounded by asphalt. That's another thing about bulk housing, the green spaces usually manicured patches of grass that you can't play on. This should be big patches of native plants and places where kids can get dirty on clean soil. Maybe even an embedded community garden. Most importantly, don't light the place up like it was Times Square. In a nearby city, there was a significant disaster in trying to increase housing density. They chose to go the ADU route. Because it violated all of the rules I laid out above, there was a massive citizen uprising and rejection of this plan. Your bigger barrier is going to be commercial groups. I've seen astronomy groups trying to get in place Light pollution control regulation at the state level. A single local lighting manufacturer has managed to spike that regulation every single time for the past 15 years. On the other hand, individuals have been successful at putting in light pollution control measures into local building codes. Hear me clearly. Single individuals have made these changes happen. How? By getting to know the people in the planning board, being polite, nonconfrontational, presenting clear rational information and most importantly not being dogmatic rigid advocates. Individuals or small (2-3) Groups of individuals have been successful in changing conservation Board attitudes and regulations that accepted by the planning board. I wrote what I did because of practical real-world examples. my experience is very different from what you have described so far. since your approach isn't working, would you consider a different approach?