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Perhaps better rapid transit could be quicker and safer than driving in amy form. Perhaps designers should design cities around rapid transit rather than buildi

Perhaps better rapid transit could be quicker and safer than driving in amy form. Perhaps designers should design cities around rapid transit rather than building rapid transit after the cities have been built.

thereisnospork 3y ago
It won't, at least not in the near term: Cars are on the precipice of both becoming immensely greener (electric) and immensely more practical (self-driving) than the status-quo. The transit-equilibrium is going to shortly and rapidly shift towards cars, not away from them.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  They're better, but I'm not ready to call them immensely greener. They're the same order of magnitude of impact, all things considered. Creating an electric car battery emits as much CO2 as creating a whole new gas vehicle from scratch. Depending on the size of the battery and on the green-ness of the grid it's attached to, it takes anywhere from 20,000 to 90,000 miles of driving an EV to reach break-even against a gasoline car. Then it has to be replaced after 100-200,000 miles. Then there's the environmental impact of lithium, copper, etc, extraction. Of course you have to consider that private ownership requirements and mandating parking minimums, free parking, etc, are a massive regressive burden on the poor. Between fuel/power, maintenance, insurance, tickets, tolls, parking, interest, payments, etc, you're liable to spend a half million dollars over your life on your car. Why? Why not retire sooner, or leave more to your kids? Freedom is your ability to go anywhere you want any time you want, it shouldn't be defined by your ownership of a very expensive metal box. The environmental benefits are quite likely to be wiped out by the growth of the car market in for instance India and China.
  - thereisnospork 3y ago
    I'm not quite sure how to parse your reply - Your definition of freedom is most efficiently accomplished by owning a very expensive metal box, only to be surpased by an expensive automous metal box. Sure it's an expensive thing, but it buys utility and it's not as if they alternatives are appreciably cheaper to offset their downsides. Perhaps regrettably, most of the USA isn't Tokyo or NYC where a car is a net burden.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      The US used to be entirely accessible by rail, both in town and between towns, before the auto lobby. Towns big and small had extensive public transit networks comprised of street cars and trains - and they were all ripped out and downtown cores turned largely into parking lots divided by interstates. Continuing down car-centricity isn't a foregone conclusion, and it's not too late to walk back our poor decision making. My point is that freedom is achievable better, safer, cheaper and cleaner by investing in non-car transit.
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  Electric and self driving vehicles do not solve the fundamental problem with personal vehicles; they cause congestion.
woodruffw 3y ago
> Perhaps designers should design cities around rapid transit rather than building rapid transit after the cities have been built. This is already the case, at least in the US. Most of our car-centric cities didn't start out that way; they were systematically converted into car-centric environments by dismantling public transit systems and replacing them with highways and surface-level parking. Examples: Sioux City[1]; Albany[2]; Boise[3]. [1]: https://www.siouxcitymuseum.org/history-website/transportation-cable-and-street-cars https://www.siouxcitymuseum.org/history-website/transportati... [2]: https://www.timesunion.com/living/article/The-evolution-of-trolley-cars-in-the-Capital-12432274.php https://www.timesunion.com/living/article/The-evolution-of-t... [3]: https://www.boisestate.edu/sps-urban/urban-resources/trolley-town/ https://www.boisestate.edu/sps-urban/urban-resources/trolley...
grandmczeb 3y ago
Sounds great, so when do you think those new cities will be ready?
- SCAQTony 3y ago
  One is being planned outside San Francisco. They have invested nearly a billion-large so far. REF: https://fortune.com/2023/08/26/silicon-valley-elites-want-new-city-outside-san-francisco-and-have-spent-nearly-1-billion-acquiring-land/ https://fortune.com/2023/08/26/silicon-valley-elites-want-ne...
  - grandmczeb 3y ago
    A cool concept, but probably decades away from breaking ground, if ever - not exactly scalable. Perhaps trying to solve traffic deaths by building a bunch of new cities is not a practical solution?

thereisnospork 3y ago

It won't, at least not in the near term: Cars are on the precipice of both becoming immensely greener (electric) and immensely more practical (self-driving) than the status-quo. The transit-equilibrium is going to shortly and rapidly shift towards cars, not away from them.

arcticbull 3y ago
They're better, but I'm not ready to call them immensely greener. They're the same order of magnitude of impact, all things considered. Creating an electric car battery emits as much CO2 as creating a whole new gas vehicle from scratch. Depending on the size of the battery and on the green-ness of the grid it's attached to, it takes anywhere from 20,000 to 90,000 miles of driving an EV to reach break-even against a gasoline car. Then it has to be replaced after 100-200,000 miles. Then there's the environmental impact of lithium, copper, etc, extraction. Of course you have to consider that private ownership requirements and mandating parking minimums, free parking, etc, are a massive regressive burden on the poor. Between fuel/power, maintenance, insurance, tickets, tolls, parking, interest, payments, etc, you're liable to spend a half million dollars over your life on your car. Why? Why not retire sooner, or leave more to your kids? Freedom is your ability to go anywhere you want any time you want, it shouldn't be defined by your ownership of a very expensive metal box. The environmental benefits are quite likely to be wiped out by the growth of the car market in for instance India and China.
- thereisnospork 3y ago
  I'm not quite sure how to parse your reply - Your definition of freedom is most efficiently accomplished by owning a very expensive metal box, only to be surpased by an expensive automous metal box. Sure it's an expensive thing, but it buys utility and it's not as if they alternatives are appreciably cheaper to offset their downsides. Perhaps regrettably, most of the USA isn't Tokyo or NYC where a car is a net burden.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    The US used to be entirely accessible by rail, both in town and between towns, before the auto lobby. Towns big and small had extensive public transit networks comprised of street cars and trains - and they were all ripped out and downtown cores turned largely into parking lots divided by interstates. Continuing down car-centricity isn't a foregone conclusion, and it's not too late to walk back our poor decision making. My point is that freedom is achievable better, safer, cheaper and cleaner by investing in non-car transit.
JambalayaJim 3y ago
Electric and self driving vehicles do not solve the fundamental problem with personal vehicles; they cause congestion.

woodruffw 3y ago

> Perhaps designers should design cities around rapid transit rather than building rapid transit after the cities have been built. This is already the case, at least in the US. Most of our car-centric cities didn't start out that way; they were systematically converted into car-centric environments by dismantling public transit systems and replacing them with highways and surface-level parking. Examples: Sioux City[1]; Albany[2]; Boise[3]. [1]: https://www.siouxcitymuseum.org/history-website/transportation-cable-and-street-cars https://www.siouxcitymuseum.org/history-website/transportati... [2]: https://www.timesunion.com/living/article/The-evolution-of-trolley-cars-in-the-Capital-12432274.php https://www.timesunion.com/living/article/The-evolution-of-t... [3]: https://www.boisestate.edu/sps-urban/urban-resources/trolley-town/ https://www.boisestate.edu/sps-urban/urban-resources/trolley...

grandmczeb 3y ago

Sounds great, so when do you think those new cities will be ready?

SCAQTony 3y ago
One is being planned outside San Francisco. They have invested nearly a billion-large so far. REF: https://fortune.com/2023/08/26/silicon-valley-elites-want-new-city-outside-san-francisco-and-have-spent-nearly-1-billion-acquiring-land/ https://fortune.com/2023/08/26/silicon-valley-elites-want-ne...
- grandmczeb 3y ago
  A cool concept, but probably decades away from breaking ground, if ever - not exactly scalable. Perhaps trying to solve traffic deaths by building a bunch of new cities is not a practical solution?