5 ms·

The answer is pretty simple: because when you let non-customers use the toilets, you're letting homeless, mentally ill, drug addicts, or just shitty people use

The answer is pretty simple: because when you let non-customers use the toilets, you're letting homeless, mentally ill, drug addicts, or just shitty people use the toilets at a far higher rate. They do insane things like smear shit and blood on the walls and leave used needles lying around, or they OD in the toilet, so it ends up becoming a real pain for the businesses to keep them open and clean for their actual customers. I don't know if Europe has the same issue with toilets, but I do remember having to pay to use public toilets there (in Paris, for example).

lolinder 3y ago
Right, but this is a very San Francisco problem. To the extent it is a problem in the rest of US, it's not a big enough problem to outweigh the benefits to the business of offering a public restroom. Even most major cities I've been in don't have trouble providing public restrooms, there's a very specific set of cities that do. San Francisco and Portland and Seattle could spend tons of money trying to fill a need that most businesses in the US fill for free, or they could spend that money solving the root problem.
- fnimick 3y ago
  And how exactly would you solve the root problem of _other cities_ sending their homeless populations to those areas? Make it more miserable to be homeless there so they are forced to go somewhere else?
  - pauldenton 3y ago
    Law and order is one way. Homeless don't seem to gather in cities with Broken Window policing
    - jefurii 3y ago
      So your solution is to criminalize poverty and mental illness. I hope you never lose your job and have trouble paying your rent.
      - pauldenton 3y ago
        You get what you pay for. You spend billions on homeless services you get more homeless people. You spend hundreds of millions on Law and order and you get law and order. You defund the police and you lose law and order.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    I guess SF just have to stop the practice of dumping their problem on the rest of the country? "Between 2005 to 2017, the city of San Francisco sent 10,500 homeless people out of town by bus.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homeless_relocation_programs_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homeless_relocation_pr... According to the Guardian the free tickets to SF are in the 100s, while SF sent 10 000 away. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...
- WalterBright 3y ago
  The root problem is drug addiction.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    And mental illness; which is likely related
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      The biggest cause of homelessness is the cost of housing.
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        Sadly, no, it's drug addiction. 90% of the homeless in Seattle are drug addicted, alcoholic, or have mental health problems. About 10% are homeless for economic reasons.
        giardini 3y ago
        So if I created a drug that cured drug addiction, corrected most psychological disorders (schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, etc.), and raised IQ by 50 points (to get that "worthless" lower 50% up above the current average, that would be enough? In fact I have created such a drug. Unfortunately at the moment I have neither the time to write down nor is this post sufficiently capacious to allow delineation of the significant factors involved in the development of the drug. However I do resolve to do so at a later time. I have been offered billions to NOT release this drug or its derivatives b/c it's use would severely disrupt the USA wage structure: wages would plummet (as a tremendous number of highly-qualified amped-IQ former homeless entered the market), immigrants would suffer and indeed, everyone doing well would suffer. I have refrained from releasing the drug not for that reason but b/c, were I to do so, everyone who posts on HN would then hate me!8-)) But I digress... My point is that, if we cured this problem(drug addiction) we would only be creating other problems. The only solutions that could work are socially unacceptable. Nonetheless I personally favor the "Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B" solution from "Hitchikers' Guide to the Galaxy": https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_...
- jmspring 3y ago
  It’s not just San Francisco, cities all over CA have similar issues (as well as the west coast - Portland, Seattle, etc).
- Modified3019 3y ago
  I cannot fathom how you could possibly think how fecal vandalism just a San Francisco problem. Cleaning literal blood and shit off the walls is a shared experience of “retail service” workers everywhere. This is both a hazard to workers and the customers that keep the place running. Hell I had to do it at least weekly in an expensive sandwich shop in a small midwest city downtown that was 99% middle/upper class whites and no homeless or druggies in sight. I cannot imagine having open bathrooms in an area populated with those more likely inflict problems.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I didn't say it wasn't a problem elsewhere, I said this: > To the extent it is a problem in the rest of US, it's not a big enough problem to outweigh the benefits to the business of offering a public restroom. There are a few cities where businesses have had to take the extreme measure of closing all public restrooms to combat this abuse. Most haven't.
- x0x0 3y ago
  As a data point, I personally know the owner of multiple restaurants in Minneapolis. He has very happily kept the bathrooms entirely closed to the public since covid -- breaking the law while doing so -- because people are trash and, if allowed, will wreck the bathrooms. Including shitting on the toilet bowl, the walls, floor, etc; drug use; and bathing in the sink, which makes a giant mess that he or his employees have to clean.
foobarian 3y ago
How are there fewer homeless on display in Europe? Are the governments there more empowered to use force to take care of the problem?
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  Likely more subsidized housing for the poor, along with much less expensive medical care.

lolinder 3y ago

Right, but this is a very San Francisco problem. To the extent it is a problem in the rest of US, it's not a big enough problem to outweigh the benefits to the business of offering a public restroom. Even most major cities I've been in don't have trouble providing public restrooms, there's a very specific set of cities that do. San Francisco and Portland and Seattle could spend tons of money trying to fill a need that most businesses in the US fill for free, or they could spend that money solving the root problem.

fnimick 3y ago
And how exactly would you solve the root problem of _other cities_ sending their homeless populations to those areas? Make it more miserable to be homeless there so they are forced to go somewhere else?
- pauldenton 3y ago
  Law and order is one way. Homeless don't seem to gather in cities with Broken Window policing
  - jefurii 3y ago
    So your solution is to criminalize poverty and mental illness. I hope you never lose your job and have trouble paying your rent.
    - pauldenton 3y ago
      You get what you pay for. You spend billions on homeless services you get more homeless people. You spend hundreds of millions on Law and order and you get law and order. You defund the police and you lose law and order.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  I guess SF just have to stop the practice of dumping their problem on the rest of the country? "Between 2005 to 2017, the city of San Francisco sent 10,500 homeless people out of town by bus.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homeless_relocation_programs_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homeless_relocation_pr... According to the Guardian the free tickets to SF are in the 100s, while SF sent 10 000 away. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...
WalterBright 3y ago
The root problem is drug addiction.
- sethammons 3y ago
  And mental illness; which is likely related
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    The biggest cause of homelessness is the cost of housing.
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      Sadly, no, it's drug addiction. 90% of the homeless in Seattle are drug addicted, alcoholic, or have mental health problems. About 10% are homeless for economic reasons.
      - giardini 3y ago
        So if I created a drug that cured drug addiction, corrected most psychological disorders (schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, etc.), and raised IQ by 50 points (to get that "worthless" lower 50% up above the current average, that would be enough? In fact I have created such a drug. Unfortunately at the moment I have neither the time to write down nor is this post sufficiently capacious to allow delineation of the significant factors involved in the development of the drug. However I do resolve to do so at a later time. I have been offered billions to NOT release this drug or its derivatives b/c it's use would severely disrupt the USA wage structure: wages would plummet (as a tremendous number of highly-qualified amped-IQ former homeless entered the market), immigrants would suffer and indeed, everyone doing well would suffer. I have refrained from releasing the drug not for that reason but b/c, were I to do so, everyone who posts on HN would then hate me!8-)) But I digress... My point is that, if we cured this problem(drug addiction) we would only be creating other problems. The only solutions that could work are socially unacceptable. Nonetheless I personally favor the "Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B" solution from "Hitchikers' Guide to the Galaxy": https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_Ship_B https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Golgafrinchan_Ark_Fleet_...
jmspring 3y ago
It’s not just San Francisco, cities all over CA have similar issues (as well as the west coast - Portland, Seattle, etc).
Modified3019 3y ago
I cannot fathom how you could possibly think how fecal vandalism just a San Francisco problem. Cleaning literal blood and shit off the walls is a shared experience of “retail service” workers everywhere. This is both a hazard to workers and the customers that keep the place running. Hell I had to do it at least weekly in an expensive sandwich shop in a small midwest city downtown that was 99% middle/upper class whites and no homeless or druggies in sight. I cannot imagine having open bathrooms in an area populated with those more likely inflict problems.
- lolinder 3y ago
  I didn't say it wasn't a problem elsewhere, I said this: > To the extent it is a problem in the rest of US, it's not a big enough problem to outweigh the benefits to the business of offering a public restroom. There are a few cities where businesses have had to take the extreme measure of closing all public restrooms to combat this abuse. Most haven't.
x0x0 3y ago
As a data point, I personally know the owner of multiple restaurants in Minneapolis. He has very happily kept the bathrooms entirely closed to the public since covid -- breaking the law while doing so -- because people are trash and, if allowed, will wreck the bathrooms. Including shitting on the toilet bowl, the walls, floor, etc; drug use; and bathing in the sink, which makes a giant mess that he or his employees have to clean.

foobarian 3y ago

How are there fewer homeless on display in Europe? Are the governments there more empowered to use force to take care of the problem?

amanaplanacanal 3y ago
Likely more subsidized housing for the poor, along with much less expensive medical care.