4 ms·

UK and Germany has a hang up that they need to reuse the existing radiators, so you sometimes need to do extra work But it’s quite stupid: In both countries yo

by eisa01 3y ago

UK and Germany has a hang up that they need to reuse the existing radiators, so you sometimes need to do extra work But it’s quite stupid: In both countries you need AC, so why not install a mini split heat pump+AC system like the Nordics and the US? It also doesn’t help that they don’t tax fossil gas like electricity, hence you often need subsidies to make it worthwhile to switch

laserdancepony 3y ago
> But it’s quite stupid: In both countries you need AC, [...] Almost no residential building in Germany has AC, and I'm unsure what you mean by "need". Also the buildings are built to last, so no remodeling every few years like in the US. That means one is stuck with most of the utility built into the house from the start. Remodeling a regular central European brick-and-mortar house to accommodate floor heating or duct vents is difficult and expensive.
- bafe 3y ago
  Speaking from Switzerland: most building until recently were clearly built for cold winters, not hot summer. They are often insulated quite well and well heated, but recent summers showed that they aren't suitable for hot weather: they lack AC, rely simply on open windows for ventilations and frequently have too many large windows that can't be darkened enough, hence letting a lot of heat in
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    I agree with that take. Being like "look at Germany, we don't need ACs" is outdated bs. I absolutely suffer for almost 2 months a year because I don't have an AC including lack of sleep etc. We will see a rise, even though some people feel like that's the wrong thing to do with the climate change. There's a fine line: if you have green energy, why would you care? Consuming more green energy actually improves the overall situation, as more money is available to build out green energy in the first place (especially with things like Green Planet Energy). It's just the need for moral superiority for some folks that's stopping AC distribution in central Europe imho.
    - bafe 3y ago
      I agree with you on the energy use. Even more so because the peak of cooling demand corresponds very well with the peak of PV energy production. If the system is well designed, cooling using an efficient split AC unit will be almost free. Besides, if they really don't want people to adopt AC it's high time to start adapting buildings and cities for hot summers , which means reducing the amount of paved surfaces, planting more trees, adding forced ventilation to buildings and blinds that really darken rooms.
      - RamblingCTO 3y ago
        Oh yeah good point! I always wonder why no one sees the very simple things you can do in a city. It shouldn't cost much to add trees etc. to a city with such a big impact
        bafe 3y ago
        They are starting. We had a referendum in Zurich last Sunday to to finance a project to adapt the city to hotter summers. It was a complex situation, with the municipal government recommending people reject the initial project in favor of a similar project organised by the city environment department. It all looks good on paper, but I fear another case of money being spent most on planning instead of using it to adopt simple measures. If you are interested, you can read all about it here: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/portal/de/index/politik_u_recht/abstimmungen_u_wahlen/aktuell/230903/230903-1.html https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/portal/de/index/politik_u_recht...
        RamblingCTO 3y ago
        So as I understand it's rejected? Fingers crossed it works out! But at least you can vote on something ;) In Germany you just feel left out and stuff happens (in either direction). That doesn't feel good at all.
        bafe 3y ago
- eisa01 3y ago
  Already 13% has air condition, and half of those are the crappy portable AC type where you put a hose through the window. Sales are on the increase as summers are hotter. We even see apartment dwellers in Norway getting these https://www.verivox.de/presse/13-prozent-der-deutschen-nutzen-eine-klimaanlage-1120301/ https://www.verivox.de/presse/13-prozent-der-deutschen-nutze...
  - morsch 3y ago
    A lot of people have bought crappy AC to help cope with the five to ten days of heatwave a year. They're not running often.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      I've been running mine for about a month. Depends on your house, how much it traps heat, etc. Really it's besides the point - you might not need a plunger to unclog the toilet or a fire extinguisher or a first aid kit often, but when you do, you really need it!
- yurishimo 3y ago
  What about portable units? They're pretty popular here in NL, but I suppose people are also rapidly installing mini-splits, at least here in the south.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Portable units in general are just bad. Not very efficient, noisy and not that performant. And sadly it seems most only have single pipe, not two that would fix lot of issues.
  - bafe 3y ago
    They are just terribly inefficient. Now a lot are sold here, but it's just not a feasible solution to make living in summer more tolerable. A mini split or even better centralised AC for the entire building is much more efficient
Ekaros 3y ago
From Nordic viewpoint Air-to-Air heatpumps are affordable and easy enough to install. Couple thousand for unit and professional installation. For single-family and even terrace no brainer. Next step up is more complicated and expensive, but still possible. And for rest district heating is common enough. And there a centralised solutions make sense, even real efficiency gains like using waste heat from factories and datacenters.
- bafe 3y ago
  It seems you are a decade ahead of Switzerland, where the most common heating system is still an oil/gas furnace and installing a split AC unit requires permissions from the municipality. In some places they are even subjected to restrictions on operating times,as a tenant you can forget about AC unless you move to a very new Minergie unit. Now people are warming up to heat pumps but it seems the wider public fails to understand split AC units are nothing but mini heat pumps
Angostura 3y ago
> In both countries you need AC Less than 5% of houses in the UK have AC
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  There are many things people need but don't have. In particular, half the houses in Britain have no insulation in the walls at all. In fact older houses tend to handle heat better - they are naturally drafty, there is a loft taking the heat, they have high thermal mass, and maybe they are even damp and have a leak and mould. All that takes away from the heat. But now we get newbuild apartments without AC's, and that should be a crime. These buildings are air tight, have zero ventilation, trap heat, no thermal mass so they don't stay cool from the night, and in some of them you can't open windows. And you are not allowed to install a split system because the landowner will never give permission. https://www.statista.com/statistics/292265/insulation-in-dwellings-in-england-uk-y-on-y/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/292265/insulation-in-dwe...
  - redeeman 3y ago
    so why would anyone ever move into such an apartment??
Maxion 3y ago
> UK and Germany has a hang up that they need to reuse the existing radiators, so you sometimes need to do extra work Air-water heat pumps are a thing
iamthemonster 3y ago
I'm really baffled as an Australian. I admit, our climate is mild but we do have 4 degree C nights and 44 degree C days sometimes. I spent AUD$10k (US$6k I think?) on split system aircon for my entire house and they work totally fine. In fact I must have slightly oversized because they have easily performed in the most extreme conditions. Installation took all morning. It's not about the technology. It's about how electricity is priced very highly compared to gas in the UK. Our electricity in Western Australia is only double the cost per kWh compared to gas, but one kWh of electricity generated three kWh of heat in a reverse cycle air con so it's a no brainer.
sebazzz 3y ago
“Need” = decide right? They want to reuse the existing radiators, but it comes with a bunch of disadvantages. You either need to replace the radiators with modern low-temperature convection radiators or place radiator ventilators. Air/water heat pumps are better suited for floor heating. You often can’t cool either, at least not with hybrid heat pumps, or you can cool a limited amount in this ever hotter getting climate.
- jibbit 3y ago
  No one wants to reuse the existing radiators. The problem is that low-temperature radiators/underfloor heating isn’t viable in 200 year old houses

by eisa01 3y ago

laserdancepony 3y ago

> But it’s quite stupid: In both countries you need AC, [...] Almost no residential building in Germany has AC, and I'm unsure what you mean by "need". Also the buildings are built to last, so no remodeling every few years like in the US. That means one is stuck with most of the utility built into the house from the start. Remodeling a regular central European brick-and-mortar house to accommodate floor heating or duct vents is difficult and expensive.

bafe 3y ago
Speaking from Switzerland: most building until recently were clearly built for cold winters, not hot summer. They are often insulated quite well and well heated, but recent summers showed that they aren't suitable for hot weather: they lack AC, rely simply on open windows for ventilations and frequently have too many large windows that can't be darkened enough, hence letting a lot of heat in
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  I agree with that take. Being like "look at Germany, we don't need ACs" is outdated bs. I absolutely suffer for almost 2 months a year because I don't have an AC including lack of sleep etc. We will see a rise, even though some people feel like that's the wrong thing to do with the climate change. There's a fine line: if you have green energy, why would you care? Consuming more green energy actually improves the overall situation, as more money is available to build out green energy in the first place (especially with things like Green Planet Energy). It's just the need for moral superiority for some folks that's stopping AC distribution in central Europe imho.
  - bafe 3y ago
    I agree with you on the energy use. Even more so because the peak of cooling demand corresponds very well with the peak of PV energy production. If the system is well designed, cooling using an efficient split AC unit will be almost free. Besides, if they really don't want people to adopt AC it's high time to start adapting buildings and cities for hot summers , which means reducing the amount of paved surfaces, planting more trees, adding forced ventilation to buildings and blinds that really darken rooms.
    - RamblingCTO 3y ago
      Oh yeah good point! I always wonder why no one sees the very simple things you can do in a city. It shouldn't cost much to add trees etc. to a city with such a big impact
      - bafe 3y ago
        They are starting. We had a referendum in Zurich last Sunday to to finance a project to adapt the city to hotter summers. It was a complex situation, with the municipal government recommending people reject the initial project in favor of a similar project organised by the city environment department. It all looks good on paper, but I fear another case of money being spent most on planning instead of using it to adopt simple measures. If you are interested, you can read all about it here: https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/portal/de/index/politik_u_recht/abstimmungen_u_wahlen/aktuell/230903/230903-1.html https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/portal/de/index/politik_u_recht...
        RamblingCTO 3y ago
        So as I understand it's rejected? Fingers crossed it works out! But at least you can vote on something ;) In Germany you just feel left out and stuff happens (in either direction). That doesn't feel good at all.
        bafe 3y ago
eisa01 3y ago
Already 13% has air condition, and half of those are the crappy portable AC type where you put a hose through the window. Sales are on the increase as summers are hotter. We even see apartment dwellers in Norway getting these https://www.verivox.de/presse/13-prozent-der-deutschen-nutzen-eine-klimaanlage-1120301/ https://www.verivox.de/presse/13-prozent-der-deutschen-nutze...
- morsch 3y ago
  A lot of people have bought crappy AC to help cope with the five to ten days of heatwave a year. They're not running often.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    I've been running mine for about a month. Depends on your house, how much it traps heat, etc. Really it's besides the point - you might not need a plunger to unclog the toilet or a fire extinguisher or a first aid kit often, but when you do, you really need it!
yurishimo 3y ago
What about portable units? They're pretty popular here in NL, but I suppose people are also rapidly installing mini-splits, at least here in the south.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Portable units in general are just bad. Not very efficient, noisy and not that performant. And sadly it seems most only have single pipe, not two that would fix lot of issues.
- bafe 3y ago
  They are just terribly inefficient. Now a lot are sold here, but it's just not a feasible solution to make living in summer more tolerable. A mini split or even better centralised AC for the entire building is much more efficient

Ekaros 3y ago

From Nordic viewpoint Air-to-Air heatpumps are affordable and easy enough to install. Couple thousand for unit and professional installation. For single-family and even terrace no brainer. Next step up is more complicated and expensive, but still possible. And for rest district heating is common enough. And there a centralised solutions make sense, even real efficiency gains like using waste heat from factories and datacenters.

bafe 3y ago
It seems you are a decade ahead of Switzerland, where the most common heating system is still an oil/gas furnace and installing a split AC unit requires permissions from the municipality. In some places they are even subjected to restrictions on operating times,as a tenant you can forget about AC unless you move to a very new Minergie unit. Now people are warming up to heat pumps but it seems the wider public fails to understand split AC units are nothing but mini heat pumps

Angostura 3y ago

> In both countries you need AC Less than 5% of houses in the UK have AC

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
There are many things people need but don't have. In particular, half the houses in Britain have no insulation in the walls at all. In fact older houses tend to handle heat better - they are naturally drafty, there is a loft taking the heat, they have high thermal mass, and maybe they are even damp and have a leak and mould. All that takes away from the heat. But now we get newbuild apartments without AC's, and that should be a crime. These buildings are air tight, have zero ventilation, trap heat, no thermal mass so they don't stay cool from the night, and in some of them you can't open windows. And you are not allowed to install a split system because the landowner will never give permission. https://www.statista.com/statistics/292265/insulation-in-dwellings-in-england-uk-y-on-y/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/292265/insulation-in-dwe...
- redeeman 3y ago
  so why would anyone ever move into such an apartment??

Maxion 3y ago

> UK and Germany has a hang up that they need to reuse the existing radiators, so you sometimes need to do extra work Air-water heat pumps are a thing

iamthemonster 3y ago

I'm really baffled as an Australian. I admit, our climate is mild but we do have 4 degree C nights and 44 degree C days sometimes. I spent AUD$10k (US$6k I think?) on split system aircon for my entire house and they work totally fine. In fact I must have slightly oversized because they have easily performed in the most extreme conditions. Installation took all morning. It's not about the technology. It's about how electricity is priced very highly compared to gas in the UK. Our electricity in Western Australia is only double the cost per kWh compared to gas, but one kWh of electricity generated three kWh of heat in a reverse cycle air con so it's a no brainer.

sebazzz 3y ago

“Need” = decide right? They want to reuse the existing radiators, but it comes with a bunch of disadvantages. You either need to replace the radiators with modern low-temperature convection radiators or place radiator ventilators. Air/water heat pumps are better suited for floor heating. You often can’t cool either, at least not with hybrid heat pumps, or you can cool a limited amount in this ever hotter getting climate.

jibbit 3y ago
No one wants to reuse the existing radiators. The problem is that low-temperature radiators/underfloor heating isn’t viable in 200 year old houses