9 ms·

Most hardware companies operate this way: their devices are on fixed release schedules, and once they're done, they're "done." Virtual Flight was part of the re

by bri3d 3y ago

Most hardware companies operate this way: their devices are on fixed release schedules, and once they're done, they're "done." Virtual Flight was part of the release cycle for some drone or another (I think the FPV potato, if I recall correctly?) and now that it's done, there's nobody allocated to or tasked with fixing it. So, software is treated the same way. Engineers copy and paste whatever stuck-together yarn ball of code off Gitee they need to produce an artifact which passes QA, then ship it. The problem comes in when there's software that needs to live for a long time in the real world - Virtual Flight, for example, was broken by some Apple update or another, and their Fly app has to support a broad range of drones so it creaks under the weight of everything being pasted together. IMO, almost all "hardware" companies trying to make software are the same way. From industrial controls to mobile phone vendors. If anything, DJI have gotten better in recent years about after-sales updates, fixes, and support than they used to be.

squirrel6 3y ago
I like this use of “artifact”
pacifika 3y ago
Ok you’re saying DJI doesn’t understand that modern software is build on top of a moving base whose interface changes over time. It’s called lifecycle support
- lazide 3y ago
  I think they’re saying every hardware company is this way, with rare exceptions.
- clnq 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Shaanie 3y ago
    >it might be illegal to support an existing product when more profit can be extracted from building a new one. Lol no, that's just a reddit opinion. Business judgment rule means businesses have a huge leeway on how to do business, outside of fraud or intentionally trying to cripple the company.
    - bobbob1921 3y ago
      Unrelated to drones (but is a hardware/software manufacturer)- I would like to call out Axis (as an Axis network cameras) as one of the rare positive lights in this mess. They clearly state how long their products will be software supported, and they stick to that minimum and frequently go well beyond that minimum. Axis has products that are over 10 years old that still receive frequent security only firmware updates. If they can do it across hundreds of different hardware products, then these companies can too. (in fact, Axis was doing it well before this became a main stream issue)
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        > If they can do it across hundreds of different hardware products, then these companies can too. It's pretty clear the issue isn't "we can't", but rather "we can, but why would we want that".
- howinteresting 3y ago
  Sounds like the world in which the platform keeps moving and breaking APIs is a pretty bad world!
sswr 3y ago
Do you think this is related to the fact that they only sell hardware (i.e., no subscription costs for the software)? Shouldn't they already factor in the cost of app support for the next X years when selling the product? I assume the same principle applies when you purchase an iPhone. Though in this case, DJI may not see Virtual Flight as core software for their product.
- bri3d 3y ago
  Yes, 100%. In places where they get software residuals (agriculture and enterprise, via FlightHub and other services), development is constant because a team stays assigned to it. I do think that in recent years DJI have gotten way better at budgeting for after-sales support on mainline products. The Mavic 3 series have gotten consistent and meaningful updates for quite some time now. This Virtual Flight app was always kind of a joke and I’m not really surprised it’s abandoned.
- dronodeath 3y ago
  > Shouldn't they already factor in the cost of app support for the next X years when selling the product? Depends what you mean by “should”. If you mean that they should because it would be the right thing to do, sure. If you mean it would be competitively advantageous, well I rather doubt it. Consumers have almost uniformly demonstrated that price trumps all.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Price and marketing. For better or worse[0], the consumers are putting trust into marketoids and their emotionally manipulative messaging, that focuses on imaginary nirvana-like experience, and completely omits how the experience is likely to look like a few months after purchase. -- [0] - Sadly, it's likely for better. The world after most people get an accurate feel for how much they can trust companies will be a very bad place to live in.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      People were saying this in 1923 after the radio became popular.
tetris11 3y ago
Yep. Take a look at Parrot's support for the Disco and Bebop drones. As of a few months ago, the FreeFlightPro app[1] no longer connects to Parrot servers so that you can login to your account on their servers, and only then connect to the drone a few feet away from you. All this obsolence, just so that they can sell you the new Anafi drones (which will be similarly obsolesced). Thank god for the Ardupilot community[2ŧŦ] stepping in to open up their drones for at least some semblance of autonomy, so that people can once again control the devices that they've purchased... 1: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.parrot.freeflight3 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.parrot.fre... 2: https://discuss.ardupilot.org/t/controlling-parrot-drones-using-skycontroller2/52647/54 https://discuss.ardupilot.org/t/controlling-parrot-drones-us... ŧ: admittedly some ex-Parrot developers helped port some stuff over. Ŧ: Andrew Tridgell (of "reason for chaging VC in Linux from BitKeeper to Git", and other true-coder fame) is pretty active here. It's a very talented community.
- aftbit 3y ago
  Thanks for the post about this. I have a Parrot Disco that I was planning to take for its first flight in about two years next weekend. Honestly these companies need to be sued over this behavior. Shutting down the servers without updating the app to work without needing login essentially bricks a product that I paid for.
  - tetris11 3y ago
    For Disco you're in luck, there are some really decent ardupilot-based projects out there[1]. Plus, unlike the Bebop camera which is inaccessible via the shell (you can only use the Parrot SDK), the Disco camera can be commanded to stream/record with a few simple commands, and even bound to controller inputs. A caveat with the controller: it needs to have custom firmware[2] to get it communicating with ardupilot, and to get the firmware onto the controller you need telnet/adb into it via SkyController→usb→ethernet→usb→Laptop adaptor(s) setup. For a ground control system (GCS), there's three to choose from: Mission Planner, APM Planner, and QGroundControl[3] (ignore the rest, use this one). For configuring the drone, mission planner is pretty good... but you can also just use MavProxy[4] which is a fantastic commandline program that all the GCSes use in some way, and can even be installed in Termux/Android. 1: https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g/ https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g/ 2: https://github.com/ArduPilot/dema-rc/ https://github.com/ArduPilot/dema-rc/ 3: https://github.com/mavlink/qgroundcontrol https://github.com/mavlink/qgroundcontrol 4: https://github.com/ArduPilot/MAVProxy https://github.com/ArduPilot/MAVProxy
numbsafari 3y ago
This is why hardware manufacturers should be required to place schematics and software source code for all components into escrow, and it becomes public when they discontinue meaningful support and or shipping a product.
- prox 3y ago
  Maybe a software-esque “right to repair”
  - Valodim 3y ago
    Sounds pretty close to what the GPLv3 does, doesn't it?
    - theK 3y ago
      Can you elaborate? AFAIK the GPL just naively enforces that something needs to be and remain open source. How can it turn closed source into open source?
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  The problem is that the software is most likely not composed by them in any meaningful way. If you take apart any proprietary firmware and controlling application you are almost certain to find boilerplate code provided by the chipset vendors (protected by NDA) glued together with other code from other vendors with a GPL violating Linux backend. Recent example: I patched in to my 3D printer's mainboard using a TTL to USB and opened up putty and guess what shows on the console? > Linux version 3.4.39+ (zhanglei@ubuntu Revision:543) * https://pastebin.com/CPB7RBdK https://pastebin.com/CPB7RBdK
  - dvdkon 3y ago
    That's less of a problem for a hypothetical law requiring either longer-term maintenance or enabling users to perform that maintenance themselves. Manufacturers would just have to make adequate contractual arrangements.
cm2187 3y ago
There is also the fact that this particular software is running on a platform that seems to wear breaking changes and backward incompatibility as a badge of honour.
- qorrect 3y ago
  I am just imagining this, or did it feel like 10-15 years ago breaking changes were a big deal, and companies went out of their way to provide an upgrade path. Now my flutter app from 3 months ago won't even compile.
  - wrs 3y ago
    The major platform companies have different historical attitudes that haven’t changed much. Microsoft: We told you what not to do, and you did it anyway, so we’ll put code in our OS specifically to keep your app running. Apple: We didn’t tell you that was OK to do, and you did it, and our latest cool stuff broke your app. Over to you. Also, we didn’t mention this earlier, but no more 32-bit apps next year, sorry. Android: We try to keep your app running, for a while, but TBH a lot of the platform comes from manufacturers who only care for about 18 months. Let’s all just try to survive.
    - mrandish 3y ago
      A depressingly accurate summary...
    - cm2187 3y ago
      not just 32bit. No more powerpc (and soon x86), no more system 7/8/9 apps, etc. It's now a long tradition.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
xattt 3y ago
K’nex had a roller coaster kit that came with Google Cardboard-style glasses and an app. The app was released when iOS 13 was current. iOS 14 broke whatever orientation alignment API the VR app used. The app reviews are flooded with people complaining it’s broken. I absolutely have no hope it will ever get fixed.
ohyes 3y ago
This is the most accurate description of dealing with a hardware manufacturer I’ve ever read. I’ve never experienced getting for example, drivers from a hardware company where it wasn’t exactly as you described.
saidinesh5 3y ago
A lot of hardware companies also just tend to just outsource a lot of software development to other third parties. Once the software is delivered, sometimes these third parties just move on/go under and the bugs in the software never get fixed.

by bri3d 3y ago

squirrel6 3y ago

I like this use of “artifact”

pacifika 3y ago

Ok you’re saying DJI doesn’t understand that modern software is build on top of a moving base whose interface changes over time. It’s called lifecycle support

lazide 3y ago
I think they’re saying every hardware company is this way, with rare exceptions.
clnq 3y ago
[flagged]
- Shaanie 3y ago
  >it might be illegal to support an existing product when more profit can be extracted from building a new one. Lol no, that's just a reddit opinion. Business judgment rule means businesses have a huge leeway on how to do business, outside of fraud or intentionally trying to cripple the company.
  - bobbob1921 3y ago
    Unrelated to drones (but is a hardware/software manufacturer)- I would like to call out Axis (as an Axis network cameras) as one of the rare positive lights in this mess. They clearly state how long their products will be software supported, and they stick to that minimum and frequently go well beyond that minimum. Axis has products that are over 10 years old that still receive frequent security only firmware updates. If they can do it across hundreds of different hardware products, then these companies can too. (in fact, Axis was doing it well before this became a main stream issue)
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      > If they can do it across hundreds of different hardware products, then these companies can too. It's pretty clear the issue isn't "we can't", but rather "we can, but why would we want that".
howinteresting 3y ago
Sounds like the world in which the platform keeps moving and breaking APIs is a pretty bad world!

sswr 3y ago

Do you think this is related to the fact that they only sell hardware (i.e., no subscription costs for the software)? Shouldn't they already factor in the cost of app support for the next X years when selling the product? I assume the same principle applies when you purchase an iPhone. Though in this case, DJI may not see Virtual Flight as core software for their product.

bri3d 3y ago
Yes, 100%. In places where they get software residuals (agriculture and enterprise, via FlightHub and other services), development is constant because a team stays assigned to it. I do think that in recent years DJI have gotten way better at budgeting for after-sales support on mainline products. The Mavic 3 series have gotten consistent and meaningful updates for quite some time now. This Virtual Flight app was always kind of a joke and I’m not really surprised it’s abandoned.
dronodeath 3y ago
> Shouldn't they already factor in the cost of app support for the next X years when selling the product? Depends what you mean by “should”. If you mean that they should because it would be the right thing to do, sure. If you mean it would be competitively advantageous, well I rather doubt it. Consumers have almost uniformly demonstrated that price trumps all.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Price and marketing. For better or worse[0], the consumers are putting trust into marketoids and their emotionally manipulative messaging, that focuses on imaginary nirvana-like experience, and completely omits how the experience is likely to look like a few months after purchase. -- [0] - Sadly, it's likely for better. The world after most people get an accurate feel for how much they can trust companies will be a very bad place to live in.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    People were saying this in 1923 after the radio became popular.

tetris11 3y ago

Yep. Take a look at Parrot's support for the Disco and Bebop drones. As of a few months ago, the FreeFlightPro app[1] no longer connects to Parrot servers so that you can login to your account on their servers, and only then connect to the drone a few feet away from you. All this obsolence, just so that they can sell you the new Anafi drones (which will be similarly obsolesced). Thank god for the Ardupilot community[2ŧŦ] stepping in to open up their drones for at least some semblance of autonomy, so that people can once again control the devices that they've purchased... 1: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.parrot.freeflight3 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.parrot.fre... 2: https://discuss.ardupilot.org/t/controlling-parrot-drones-using-skycontroller2/52647/54 https://discuss.ardupilot.org/t/controlling-parrot-drones-us... ŧ: admittedly some ex-Parrot developers helped port some stuff over. Ŧ: Andrew Tridgell (of "reason for chaging VC in Linux from BitKeeper to Git", and other true-coder fame) is pretty active here. It's a very talented community.

aftbit 3y ago
Thanks for the post about this. I have a Parrot Disco that I was planning to take for its first flight in about two years next weekend. Honestly these companies need to be sued over this behavior. Shutting down the servers without updating the app to work without needing login essentially bricks a product that I paid for.
- tetris11 3y ago
  For Disco you're in luck, there are some really decent ardupilot-based projects out there[1]. Plus, unlike the Bebop camera which is inaccessible via the shell (you can only use the Parrot SDK), the Disco camera can be commanded to stream/record with a few simple commands, and even bound to controller inputs. A caveat with the controller: it needs to have custom firmware[2] to get it communicating with ardupilot, and to get the firmware onto the controller you need telnet/adb into it via SkyController→usb→ethernet→usb→Laptop adaptor(s) setup. For a ground control system (GCS), there's three to choose from: Mission Planner, APM Planner, and QGroundControl[3] (ignore the rest, use this one). For configuring the drone, mission planner is pretty good... but you can also just use MavProxy[4] which is a fantastic commandline program that all the GCSes use in some way, and can even be installed in Termux/Android. 1: https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g/ https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g/ 2: https://github.com/ArduPilot/dema-rc/ https://github.com/ArduPilot/dema-rc/ 3: https://github.com/mavlink/qgroundcontrol https://github.com/mavlink/qgroundcontrol 4: https://github.com/ArduPilot/MAVProxy https://github.com/ArduPilot/MAVProxy

numbsafari 3y ago

This is why hardware manufacturers should be required to place schematics and software source code for all components into escrow, and it becomes public when they discontinue meaningful support and or shipping a product.

prox 3y ago
Maybe a software-esque “right to repair”
- Valodim 3y ago
  Sounds pretty close to what the GPLv3 does, doesn't it?
  - theK 3y ago
    Can you elaborate? AFAIK the GPL just naively enforces that something needs to be and remain open source. How can it turn closed source into open source?
Eisenstein 3y ago
The problem is that the software is most likely not composed by them in any meaningful way. If you take apart any proprietary firmware and controlling application you are almost certain to find boilerplate code provided by the chipset vendors (protected by NDA) glued together with other code from other vendors with a GPL violating Linux backend. Recent example: I patched in to my 3D printer's mainboard using a TTL to USB and opened up putty and guess what shows on the console? > Linux version 3.4.39+ (zhanglei@ubuntu Revision:543) * https://pastebin.com/CPB7RBdK https://pastebin.com/CPB7RBdK
- dvdkon 3y ago
  That's less of a problem for a hypothetical law requiring either longer-term maintenance or enabling users to perform that maintenance themselves. Manufacturers would just have to make adequate contractual arrangements.

cm2187 3y ago

There is also the fact that this particular software is running on a platform that seems to wear breaking changes and backward incompatibility as a badge of honour.

qorrect 3y ago
I am just imagining this, or did it feel like 10-15 years ago breaking changes were a big deal, and companies went out of their way to provide an upgrade path. Now my flutter app from 3 months ago won't even compile.
- wrs 3y ago
  The major platform companies have different historical attitudes that haven’t changed much. Microsoft: We told you what not to do, and you did it anyway, so we’ll put code in our OS specifically to keep your app running. Apple: We didn’t tell you that was OK to do, and you did it, and our latest cool stuff broke your app. Over to you. Also, we didn’t mention this earlier, but no more 32-bit apps next year, sorry. Android: We try to keep your app running, for a while, but TBH a lot of the platform comes from manufacturers who only care for about 18 months. Let’s all just try to survive.
  - mrandish 3y ago
    A depressingly accurate summary...
  - cm2187 3y ago
    not just 32bit. No more powerpc (and soon x86), no more system 7/8/9 apps, etc. It's now a long tradition.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

xattt 3y ago

K’nex had a roller coaster kit that came with Google Cardboard-style glasses and an app. The app was released when iOS 13 was current. iOS 14 broke whatever orientation alignment API the VR app used. The app reviews are flooded with people complaining it’s broken. I absolutely have no hope it will ever get fixed.

ohyes 3y ago

This is the most accurate description of dealing with a hardware manufacturer I’ve ever read. I’ve never experienced getting for example, drivers from a hardware company where it wasn’t exactly as you described.

saidinesh5 3y ago

A lot of hardware companies also just tend to just outsource a lot of software development to other third parties. Once the software is delivered, sometimes these third parties just move on/go under and the bugs in the software never get fixed.