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No, a nation should not put just its citizens first, that’s nationalistic garbage. Firstly it presumes a nation decides who its citizens are through some fair

by Zetice 3y ago

No, a nation should not put just its citizens first, that’s nationalistic garbage. Firstly it presumes a nation decides who its citizens are through some fair system, and secondly it presumes its citizens are somehow inherently more deserving than its non citizens. Anyone who agrees to the social contract gets to benefit from the nation. That’s what a country actually is.

dudul 3y ago
You throw a lot of half baked assertions on this thread but it doesn't seem to go anywhere. Who should a nation put first then? I dont see the connection between how citizenship is acquired (AFAIK each nation is free to set the rules/laws that they think is fair) and if citizens should get special treatment or not. If citizens can't get "special" treatment over non resident in their own country what's the point of countries? How people become residents and what "rights" they have die to this status is part of the "social contract".
- Zetice 3y ago
  A nation supports the people who agree to the social contract upon which the nation is founded, citizenship be damned. Citizenship in the US is a profoundly broken system with a horrendous and racist past, and using it to decide who deserves the benefit of the social contract and who doesn’t is actively buying into the nationalistic and false idea that Americans are superior just because they were born somewhere and foreigners weren’t. You wouldn’t argue that black slaves weren’t worthy of US protection and services until the 14th Amendment was passed, would you? You wouldn’t pretend like the US granting and then revoking citizenship from Mexican settlers repeatedly in the 19th and 20th century was acceptable, would you? Was the Chinese Exclusion Act acceptable? A foreign life is worth exactly the same as an American life, and the difference is completely arbitrary.
  - dudul 3y ago
    You're now blatantly strawmaning. Nobody is talking about the value of a life or people being superior to others. We're discussing employment policies.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      That’s exactly what is being discussed, even if you don’t realize what it is you’re saying. Americans are not more deserving of jobs than foreigners, Americans are not better than foreigners.
      - peteradio 3y ago
        Americans are free to rule their country as they wish that is basically the premise it's founded on. Deserve means nothing in this context.
        Zetice 3y ago
        Deserve means everything in this context, because I, as an American, am discussing with my fellow Americans how our country works and the principles upon which we ought to rule ourselves. Those principles are heavily founded in “deserve”. You are watching some infinitesimally small part of that “ruling” process.
        jimmygrapes 3y ago
        Citizenship is meant to limit external actors influencing the vote of who should represent the people of any given area, and being qualified to represent the people by virtue of a sustained commitment and longevity.
        Zetice 3y ago
        No, it's meant to determine which people have agreed to the social contract. Citizenship is not some sacred thing you must earn; simply agreeing to give up some freedom is all it takes to benefit from the social programs offered by a government. The bureaucratic concept of "citizenship" is just a way for people to construct barriers of hate around the benefits offered by a nation while still forcing people to accept the sacrifices.
        3y ago
jpalawaga 3y ago
Your premise is flawed. If I create a new nation and my nations social contact is one norm: no outsiders, then you can't simply be a national by agreeing to the contract. In practice, nations prioritize their own citizens, in the same way you will prioritize your family. Do you abandon taking care of your family because it would be "more fair," to take care of someone on the other side of the planet? Your countrymen should have aligned values, cultures, goals, missions, etc that prioritizes them. That's the fabric of society.
- Zetice 3y ago
  The problem you’re ignoring is that there is not a 1:1 correlation between citizenship and people who agree to the social contract. Everyone who gives up freedom to the state is entering into a social contract with that state, citizenship or no. Once those people enter into that contract, they deserve all of the rights and services the contract provides. By tying the contract to citizenship, you provide a way for racists and nationalists to steal from the people arbitrarily determined to be noncitizens, usually along racial lines.
  - i_am_a_peasant 3y ago
    Preach it fellow human. I sometimes am baffled by how little a damn people in privileged positions can give about others. All they're interested in is preserving their position of privilege, and their political views and philosophy on life will typically reflect that. Personally I would give citizenship and a free house to any good hearted hard working individual and not give a damn where they come from. Our whole society would benefit if we didn't have to waste so much of our brain power just on surviving.
  - vacuity 3y ago
    At the same time, if a surplus of noncitizens enter and suddenly the country's ability to provide for all of its people is strained, wouldn't that be a grave disservice to the citizens? What would be the difference between a citizen and a noncitizen then? Not that a country like the US is reasonably providing for a large portion of the populace anyways, so I suppose that's a moot point right now.
IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago
"Judge a person by their actions, not their words" When you willingly leave your family out in the cold, thanksgiving winter; to have space to provide random passersby into your house to eat your turkey, lets talk!
MJsGlove 3y ago
Everything you said is wrong

by Zetice 3y ago

dudul 3y ago

You throw a lot of half baked assertions on this thread but it doesn't seem to go anywhere. Who should a nation put first then? I dont see the connection between how citizenship is acquired (AFAIK each nation is free to set the rules/laws that they think is fair) and if citizens should get special treatment or not. If citizens can't get "special" treatment over non resident in their own country what's the point of countries? How people become residents and what "rights" they have die to this status is part of the "social contract".

Zetice 3y ago
A nation supports the people who agree to the social contract upon which the nation is founded, citizenship be damned. Citizenship in the US is a profoundly broken system with a horrendous and racist past, and using it to decide who deserves the benefit of the social contract and who doesn’t is actively buying into the nationalistic and false idea that Americans are superior just because they were born somewhere and foreigners weren’t. You wouldn’t argue that black slaves weren’t worthy of US protection and services until the 14th Amendment was passed, would you? You wouldn’t pretend like the US granting and then revoking citizenship from Mexican settlers repeatedly in the 19th and 20th century was acceptable, would you? Was the Chinese Exclusion Act acceptable? A foreign life is worth exactly the same as an American life, and the difference is completely arbitrary.
- dudul 3y ago
  You're now blatantly strawmaning. Nobody is talking about the value of a life or people being superior to others. We're discussing employment policies.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    That’s exactly what is being discussed, even if you don’t realize what it is you’re saying. Americans are not more deserving of jobs than foreigners, Americans are not better than foreigners.
    - peteradio 3y ago
      Americans are free to rule their country as they wish that is basically the premise it's founded on. Deserve means nothing in this context.
      - Zetice 3y ago
        Deserve means everything in this context, because I, as an American, am discussing with my fellow Americans how our country works and the principles upon which we ought to rule ourselves. Those principles are heavily founded in “deserve”. You are watching some infinitesimally small part of that “ruling” process.
        jimmygrapes 3y ago
        Citizenship is meant to limit external actors influencing the vote of who should represent the people of any given area, and being qualified to represent the people by virtue of a sustained commitment and longevity.
        Zetice 3y ago
        No, it's meant to determine which people have agreed to the social contract. Citizenship is not some sacred thing you must earn; simply agreeing to give up some freedom is all it takes to benefit from the social programs offered by a government. The bureaucratic concept of "citizenship" is just a way for people to construct barriers of hate around the benefits offered by a nation while still forcing people to accept the sacrifices.
        3y ago

jpalawaga 3y ago

Your premise is flawed. If I create a new nation and my nations social contact is one norm: no outsiders, then you can't simply be a national by agreeing to the contract. In practice, nations prioritize their own citizens, in the same way you will prioritize your family. Do you abandon taking care of your family because it would be "more fair," to take care of someone on the other side of the planet? Your countrymen should have aligned values, cultures, goals, missions, etc that prioritizes them. That's the fabric of society.

Zetice 3y ago
The problem you’re ignoring is that there is not a 1:1 correlation between citizenship and people who agree to the social contract. Everyone who gives up freedom to the state is entering into a social contract with that state, citizenship or no. Once those people enter into that contract, they deserve all of the rights and services the contract provides. By tying the contract to citizenship, you provide a way for racists and nationalists to steal from the people arbitrarily determined to be noncitizens, usually along racial lines.
- i_am_a_peasant 3y ago
  Preach it fellow human. I sometimes am baffled by how little a damn people in privileged positions can give about others. All they're interested in is preserving their position of privilege, and their political views and philosophy on life will typically reflect that. Personally I would give citizenship and a free house to any good hearted hard working individual and not give a damn where they come from. Our whole society would benefit if we didn't have to waste so much of our brain power just on surviving.
- vacuity 3y ago
  At the same time, if a surplus of noncitizens enter and suddenly the country's ability to provide for all of its people is strained, wouldn't that be a grave disservice to the citizens? What would be the difference between a citizen and a noncitizen then? Not that a country like the US is reasonably providing for a large portion of the populace anyways, so I suppose that's a moot point right now.

IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago

"Judge a person by their actions, not their words" When you willingly leave your family out in the cold, thanksgiving winter; to have space to provide random passersby into your house to eat your turkey, lets talk!

MJsGlove 3y ago

Everything you said is wrong