8 ms·

-- Removed. Perhaps I overreacted. -- As a designer, I find it somewhat perplexing that people here demand that code be directly copied for something like this

by dcurtis 15y ago

-- Removed. Perhaps I overreacted. -- As a designer, I find it somewhat perplexing that people here demand that code be directly copied for something like this be wrong. Design is more abstract than code, yes, but it's just as fundamental a part of the resulting product. Copying design, especially when the original source is so obvious, has damaging effects that are hard to quantify. Poor clones can directly damage the creation of a strong original brand and can preempt future creative product positioning. Because it is not user facing, identically copied code--when the design has been changed--has no such effects. Why do so many people believe that only copying code should be considered wrong when design has the potential to be more damaging? To me, they are both equally wrong. Great artists steal. Please steal my ideas. Take them, manipulate them, and build them into something that is your own. I wouldn't have publicized my new platform if I didn't expect the ideas to be used. Just please don't copy my implementation or designs. I need those things to be sacred so I can craft experiences that are not diluted by external factors.

lewispb 15y ago
Superheroes don't cry in public.
drewblaisdell 15y ago
How different would you say his parody of your site is than your site is of http://drawar.com/ http://drawar.com/ ?
- rdl 15y ago
  I'd even prefer Drawar, if they didn't stretch video objects beyond the implied margins of posts.
- manmal 15y ago
  I like Dustin's design better, but DAMN.. he clearly borrowed from there :) I don't see a problem here, and I would feel flattered if I were Dustin (or Paul Scrivens).
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- willvarfar 15y ago
  I don't see it; the whole workflow - draft to publish columns and such - is the same at drawar, or?
  - lbotos 15y ago
    I think it is a reference to the similarities in site layout. Same thin sidebar. Same minimalistic style.
    - willvarfar 15y ago
      But the whole svbtle article was very much about workflow and, at the end, community building via invites. My blog has a similar minimal design and its just a stock Tubmlr one.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - jules 15y ago
        Since when are drafts a revolutionary blogging concept that dcurtis has a monopoly on? And Obtvse did not copy the community building via invites. In fact that was the whole point.
        willvarfar 15y ago
        I thought we were discussing the suggestion that Dustin copied www.drawar.com
        jules 15y ago
        No, we were discussing whether Obtvse is evil. You said that although you did not disagree that Dustin copied drawar.com's design, the important contribution of Dustin is the drafts & closed community, and by implication that the evil act of Obtvse was to copy (a subset of) these concepts from Dustin. That is what I was contesting.
nwienert 15y ago
Dustin, I still stand by the original work. Notice I've changed three things on the site: a slightly grey header, non-bordered links, and a square logo. Also it was FAR from a pixel-for-pixel exact duplication. Spacing around the site is still different, as is the font and font sizing. I think you should realize you overreacted a bit. It was simply an experiment and a way to give back to the community.
- doe88 15y ago
  And you should realize that you took Dustin's idea, whereas he probably thought about it for a long time, and you in 5mn you make a snapshot, modify few colors, change the font and declare it's your "personnal design" now. What a shame. And I'm not a Dustin's fan, few hours ago when I read his disclaimer for svbtle saying that it was for genius people blah blah blah. I told myself "what a d*", but I also thought that the design of his site is brillant.
- joshmz 15y ago
  doe88: thats how economy and innovation works dude. people see stuff, they like it, they make it better (or different). these discussions only happen for it products. can't see mr. porsche complaining about enzo ferrari (when still alive... yea. those were the days!).
- 54mf 15y ago
  You're kidding, right? http://briefmobile.com/images/articles/galaxy-s-vs-iphone.jpg http://briefmobile.com/images/articles/galaxy-s-vs-iphone.jp... You are on the left.
  - sangaya 15y ago
    The great thing about the left is that it provides me a choice. I appreciate the opportunity to have a choice.
  - ceejayoz 15y ago
    If the one on the right was only sold to exclusive, vetted users, wouldn't you be hoping for someone to make the one on the left?
nwienert 15y ago
The work is all original, no code or images were copied. As I stated in my post, I'll be changing my personal design shortly.
- dcurtis 15y ago
  If you precisely replicated the New York Times website and posted one called The Old Vork Times, do you think they wouldn't care? This is not original. You copied my design work.
  - rms 15y ago
    Copied your work. It's ridiculous, of course, but you won't win any fans here with linguistic imprecision.
  - judofyr 15y ago
    There are two aspects here: One is the visual design, and even the author agrees that it's probably too similar: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744356 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744356 The other is the idea/concept. Creating open-source versions of unique ideas is nothing new and I doubt you'll see much sympathy on this front.
    - cleal 15y ago
      I'm wondering how is this very different from MS Office vs. LibreOffice... Granted, latest incarnations of MS's products are a bit different with the (crappy) ribbon and all, but LO is quite similar to previous versions of Office. And I'm talking both about UI, design and functionality. Think Excel/Calc functions, for example.
    - 54mf 15y ago
      Right, and as Mr. Curtis said, the author copied his design work. Mr. Curtis isn't crying fowl that someone built an open-source blog engine.
  - jvrossb 15y ago
    If you copied the articles, yes. If you copied the design using none of their assets or code, no. Copying it definitely is, stealing it definitely isn't (at least not in the legal sense, the moral sense is debatable.) You should have confidence that you will win because you can implement it better, understand the need better, can craft better solutions faster, and have better content on your network. If those things aren't true and all you had was an idea, unfortunately this was bound to happen. Ideas alone are not defensible, practically or even legally. Successful implementations thereof can be however.
syaz1 15y ago
How is this a ripoff? I didn't follow the story but from what I see in the GH page, he's making an alternative to your currently closed-source solution.
- dcurtis 15y ago
  That is exactly what he did. Just because it's closed source doesn't mean it's fair to make an identical copy (in the interface and interaction design sense) that is free.
  - redment 15y ago
    I'm not very well-versed in this type of stuff but I want to ask you an honest question: Is creating an open-source alternative to a closed-source software considered theft?
    - masklinn 15y ago
      > Is creating an open-source alternative to a closed-source software considered theft? Not under any definition of "theft" in use outside IP troll offices, as far as I know.
    - sp332 15y ago
      In terms of design, yes. He didn't just make something that performs the same function. He took Dustin's ideas and visual design so directly that it might even legally count as copyright infringement. Since dcurtis's work is not licensed for this use, making a copy might not be legal. And since he wanted to keep it closed for a while, lifting all his hard work into your own project is not cool.
    - JoshTriplett 15y ago
      > Is creating an open-source alternative to a closed-source software considered theft? No, never, as long as the open-source alternative doesn't actually copy any copyrightable material from the original (such as images or other data). And I don't see any signs of that here. On the contrary, creating an open-source alternative to closed-source software is considered awesome.
appleflaxen 15y ago
No more of a ripoff than Windows Metro is a ripoff of the iPhone OS. If you open source your version, this will not detract from it. And if you don't, then this gives folks something to use.
davidw 15y ago
If he's using your code, you have something to say, otherwise, not really, thankfully. I don't want to live in a world where SCO wins, or Apple puts the kibosh on Microsoft for creating an interface with icons and windows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microso... I think you should calm down, take a deep breath, accept the compliment, and see how you can work together. It sounds like he'd be happy to help you make it 'ready' faster.
- molf 15y ago
  Under European law this would be copyright infringement on account of copying the design. Don't believe it holds in the US, but I'm not 100% sure.
  - virtualritz 15y ago
    Can you show us some references to this law? In Europe you can apply for design patents. Afaik doing so costs a four digit sum in EUR plus the patent lawyer that writes the legalese for you. However, to get such a patent the design must clearly be novel. Really, really novel. My uncle happens to be a patent lawyer a.d. who fought a lot of cases about product design for a big telco in the European patents court in his time. Knowing a few of his cases, I strongly doubt dcurtis design would be eligible for a design patent in Europe. The blog itself (it's functionality) would fail an attempt to patented for similar reasons. Apart from that, yes there is copyright everywhere but where this starts in cases like the one at hand is a gray area at best.
    - molf 15y ago
      I'm not a lawyer, but it appears to be covered in the Berne Convention [1] as "works of applied art". The copied design we saw this morning was probably "substantially similar" [2] to the original. Apparently designs are copyrighted in the US as well, in contrast to what I thought [3]. [1] http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/treaties/en/ip/berne/pdf/trtdocs_wo001.pdf http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/treaties/en/ip/berne/pd... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity (in US copyright law) [3] http://norcal.gag.org/legalities/2004/legalities_no03.html http://norcal.gag.org/legalities/2004/legalities_no03.html (first question)
necolas 15y ago
> Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. Does that mean it will be open to _anyone_ and no longer only to people considered to be "intelligent, creative, and witty"?
irahul 15y ago
> Please take this site down and delete the Github repository. The work isn't yours. Any semi-competent programmer can reproduce it within a day or two(the OP did it in a shorter span of time). That won't help, and you aren't entitled to what you think you are. And the work is totally his. The design was too similar, but still, its his work. He didn't steal your css or images, and though you might feel rough about it, it doesn't make it theft as you are putting it again and again. > Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. The reason it's closed is really simple: it's not ready yet. Great for people who want to blog on Svbtle. If I don't and I like the idea, I am going to implement it and use it. I am glad we don't live in a world where you or anyone else can stop me from doing it. The hard part was coming up with the original concept and design - kudos to you for the great work. Reproducing it is easy, and I don't think you have any right to stop me from doing it. As another commenter pointed out, we don't actually want a world where Apple says MS stole its windows.
- 54mf 15y ago
  If I paint Starry Night from scratch, entirely by myself, it's not my work. It's a rip-off.
  - unalone 15y ago
    There's actually quite an open market for imitations of great art. They're not nearly as valuable as the originals, though, because painters like van Gogh created astonishing works of art and part of the value is being able to gaze upon original proof of astonishing human achievement. I would never repaint van Gogh, because I'd rather paint my own things. On the other hand, if I were to want a Thomas Kincade painting (for some ghastly reason), I'd definitely buy the cheapest reproduction I could find, because the original painting just wasn't that valuable to begin with.
    - 286c8cb04bda 15y ago
      > I would never repaint van Gogh, because I'd rather paint my own things. If I were a painter, I would paint me the hell out of some van Gogh. In every skill I've practiced seeing what the masters do, reproducing it (especially figuring out _why_ they did it that way) has been a very useful learning technique. More to the point of your post, and this story: Would I sell my van Gogh copies? Probably not. Not because I think there's something terribly wrong about it. Mostly because they'd still be inferior to the original. I would certainly give them away to friends who wanted to hang it in their den or library, though.
appleflaxen 15y ago
on your edit: pixel-for-pixel? Are you kidding? That would be hard to do in an html document even if it was your goal. Not only that, but I saw the original, and it wasn't. You have inverted the moral terrain, and you are now going to have to defend your own credibility / honesty when you are leveling those same accusations at someone else.
- joshmz 15y ago
  but think about the children! ;)
ErrantX 15y ago
It's hardly the most complex of designs; looking at this and comparing it to yours, he inherits the basic layout (which isn't really revolutionary) but doesn't have the complexity and flashiness - which seems to me the critical portion of the design. As to writing it.. you made a fairly big splashy announcement about this great new concept in blogging, and then made it invitation only. That's guaranteed to get push back from the community, especially one that considers ideas only good for execution! It seems fairly simple to implement - you might claim some moral ownership of the concept, but that probably won't hold up well, either, in this community. This is community that lives on the maxim of "release early and iterate", we're not always looking for a slick finished product. So now you have competition; may the best product win! (It may seem cruel, Dustin, but you do have an attitude - and that seems to have grated on people. So, maybe this gives you an experience of the same feeling. Just saying.) EDIT: Dustin's edited response is interesting; as a programmer I probably don't set as much store by the elements of design as he (naturally) does - simple things don't represent a creative element, to me in the same way. Which is interesting food for thought. Hopefully Nate will continue to move his design away from Dustin's
- sp332 15y ago
  Edit: If you're talking about the changed version this morning, check out the screenshots at the bottom to see what dcurtis was mad about. Basic layout? Also the color scheme, font hierarchy, whitespace around elements (which is a critical portion of the design), and basically every trick dcurtis used to draw the eye and maintain the mental flow of the app.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - ErrantX 15y ago
    I willingly admit that, not being a designer, I may well have miss the subtlety in the basic layout that is important. Is there really that much in the column sizing? With that said; you are right about font/colors (I hadn't noticed). I give credit to Nate for taking steps to address those similarities following feedback, and I hope he goes further with that.
obilgic 15y ago
It is too late for changing your altitude ! The most important thing was your initial reaction, and you failed to handle this.
irahul 15y ago
> As a designer, I find it somewhat perplexing that people here demand that code be directly copied for something like this be wrong. Design is more abstract than code, yes, but it's just as fundamental a part of the resulting product. Design is a fundamental part of the product - no body is contesting it. Personally I am taking exception to your exclusivity expectations. I have given it a lot of thought, and I believe the current optimum is he can rip off your design and only thing you can do about it is feel outraged. The alternative is scary - if this sort of exclusivity requirements are enforced, Apple would shutdown MS over supposedly copying windows and Android over copying "swipe to unlock". > Copying design, especially when the original source is so obvious, has damaging effects that are hard to quantify. Poor clones can directly damage the creation of a strong original brand and can preempt future creative product positioning. That's how free market works. > Please steal my ideas. Take them, manipulate them, and build them into something that is your own. I wouldn't have publicized my new platform if I didn't expect the ideas to be used. Just don't copy my implementation or designs. I can choose to play nice, or I can rip you off wholesale. As long as I am within the realms of law, it's fair game. You might not like it, but it's better than the alternatives where you can dictate what I can and can not do just because you did something first.
wglb 15y ago
But then there is this: http://www.dustincurtis.com/dear_american_airlines.html http://www.dustincurtis.com/dear_american_airlines.html
yummyfajitas 15y ago
Perhaps I overreacted. Takes a lot to admit this, especially publicly. Hopefully if I find myself in a similar situation, I'll do the same thing, and in less than an hour after my initial reaction. If HN had Kudos buttons, I'd hover my mouse over yours for a few seconds.
- m_for_monkey 15y ago
  Please don't do the same. I mean, apologizing is OK, but don't delete the original post, especially if there are twenty replies to it.
  - amirmc 15y ago
    Yup. It makes following the thread really tricky and can even make some of the replies seem out-of-context.
jeremymims 15y ago
I honestly can't remember the last time a fellow HN user put together an unfinished project, wrote a blog post demonstrating the ideas behind the project, and then had his work so shamelessly ripped off on the very day it was created! To see the HN community defending this is really sad. Dustin himself had asked people not to copy his work and that he was releasing it publicly: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596 It's bullshit like this that discourages good ideas from being shared.
naryad 15y ago
> Just please don't copy my implementation or designs. I need those things to be sacred so I can craft experiences that are not diluted by external factors. I don't understand how reusing/copying something finely done reduce its sacredness/sanctity.
- raldi 15y ago
  Yeah, sounds disturbingly like the people looking to "protect marriage" in America.
waxjar 15y ago
Can someone copy-paste what was originally here? This discussion thread makes no sense at all.
gyardley 15y ago
I could be wrong, but I suspect the legitimacy or illegitimacy of copying design is a red herring here. Perhaps svbtle's invite-only status made people feel like outsiders, perhaps something you've done in the past rubbed someone the wrong way - either way, I suspect the personal dislike comes first and the justification for the action comes second. If the design of a much-beloved figure here was stolen, I suspect the reaction and the arguments in the thread would be very different. Stanley Fish wrote an interesting opinion piece recently about this impulse, applied to politics: http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/two-cheers-for-double-standards/ http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/two-cheers...

by dcurtis 15y ago

lewispb 15y ago

Superheroes don't cry in public.

drewblaisdell 15y ago

How different would you say his parody of your site is than your site is of http://drawar.com/ http://drawar.com/ ?

rdl 15y ago
I'd even prefer Drawar, if they didn't stretch video objects beyond the implied margins of posts.
manmal 15y ago
I like Dustin's design better, but DAMN.. he clearly borrowed from there :) I don't see a problem here, and I would feel flattered if I were Dustin (or Paul Scrivens).
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
willvarfar 15y ago
I don't see it; the whole workflow - draft to publish columns and such - is the same at drawar, or?
- lbotos 15y ago
  I think it is a reference to the similarities in site layout. Same thin sidebar. Same minimalistic style.
  - willvarfar 15y ago
    But the whole svbtle article was very much about workflow and, at the end, community building via invites. My blog has a similar minimal design and its just a stock Tubmlr one.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - jules 15y ago
      Since when are drafts a revolutionary blogging concept that dcurtis has a monopoly on? And Obtvse did not copy the community building via invites. In fact that was the whole point.
      - willvarfar 15y ago
        I thought we were discussing the suggestion that Dustin copied www.drawar.com
        jules 15y ago
        No, we were discussing whether Obtvse is evil. You said that although you did not disagree that Dustin copied drawar.com's design, the important contribution of Dustin is the drafts & closed community, and by implication that the evil act of Obtvse was to copy (a subset of) these concepts from Dustin. That is what I was contesting.

nwienert 15y ago

Dustin, I still stand by the original work. Notice I've changed three things on the site: a slightly grey header, non-bordered links, and a square logo. Also it was FAR from a pixel-for-pixel exact duplication. Spacing around the site is still different, as is the font and font sizing. I think you should realize you overreacted a bit. It was simply an experiment and a way to give back to the community.

doe88 15y ago
And you should realize that you took Dustin's idea, whereas he probably thought about it for a long time, and you in 5mn you make a snapshot, modify few colors, change the font and declare it's your "personnal design" now. What a shame. And I'm not a Dustin's fan, few hours ago when I read his disclaimer for svbtle saying that it was for genius people blah blah blah. I told myself "what a d*", but I also thought that the design of his site is brillant.
joshmz 15y ago
doe88: thats how economy and innovation works dude. people see stuff, they like it, they make it better (or different). these discussions only happen for it products. can't see mr. porsche complaining about enzo ferrari (when still alive... yea. those were the days!).
54mf 15y ago
You're kidding, right? http://briefmobile.com/images/articles/galaxy-s-vs-iphone.jpg http://briefmobile.com/images/articles/galaxy-s-vs-iphone.jp... You are on the left.
- sangaya 15y ago
  The great thing about the left is that it provides me a choice. I appreciate the opportunity to have a choice.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  If the one on the right was only sold to exclusive, vetted users, wouldn't you be hoping for someone to make the one on the left?

nwienert 15y ago

The work is all original, no code or images were copied. As I stated in my post, I'll be changing my personal design shortly.

dcurtis 15y ago
If you precisely replicated the New York Times website and posted one called The Old Vork Times, do you think they wouldn't care? This is not original. You copied my design work.
- rms 15y ago
  Copied your work. It's ridiculous, of course, but you won't win any fans here with linguistic imprecision.
- judofyr 15y ago
  There are two aspects here: One is the visual design, and even the author agrees that it's probably too similar: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744356 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744356 The other is the idea/concept. Creating open-source versions of unique ideas is nothing new and I doubt you'll see much sympathy on this front.
  - cleal 15y ago
    I'm wondering how is this very different from MS Office vs. LibreOffice... Granted, latest incarnations of MS's products are a bit different with the (crappy) ribbon and all, but LO is quite similar to previous versions of Office. And I'm talking both about UI, design and functionality. Think Excel/Calc functions, for example.
  - 54mf 15y ago
    Right, and as Mr. Curtis said, the author copied his design work. Mr. Curtis isn't crying fowl that someone built an open-source blog engine.
- jvrossb 15y ago
  If you copied the articles, yes. If you copied the design using none of their assets or code, no. Copying it definitely is, stealing it definitely isn't (at least not in the legal sense, the moral sense is debatable.) You should have confidence that you will win because you can implement it better, understand the need better, can craft better solutions faster, and have better content on your network. If those things aren't true and all you had was an idea, unfortunately this was bound to happen. Ideas alone are not defensible, practically or even legally. Successful implementations thereof can be however.

syaz1 15y ago

How is this a ripoff? I didn't follow the story but from what I see in the GH page, he's making an alternative to your currently closed-source solution.

dcurtis 15y ago
That is exactly what he did. Just because it's closed source doesn't mean it's fair to make an identical copy (in the interface and interaction design sense) that is free.
- redment 15y ago
  I'm not very well-versed in this type of stuff but I want to ask you an honest question: Is creating an open-source alternative to a closed-source software considered theft?
  - masklinn 15y ago
    > Is creating an open-source alternative to a closed-source software considered theft? Not under any definition of "theft" in use outside IP troll offices, as far as I know.
  - sp332 15y ago
    In terms of design, yes. He didn't just make something that performs the same function. He took Dustin's ideas and visual design so directly that it might even legally count as copyright infringement. Since dcurtis's work is not licensed for this use, making a copy might not be legal. And since he wanted to keep it closed for a while, lifting all his hard work into your own project is not cool.
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    > Is creating an open-source alternative to a closed-source software considered theft? No, never, as long as the open-source alternative doesn't actually copy any copyrightable material from the original (such as images or other data). And I don't see any signs of that here. On the contrary, creating an open-source alternative to closed-source software is considered awesome.

appleflaxen 15y ago

No more of a ripoff than Windows Metro is a ripoff of the iPhone OS. If you open source your version, this will not detract from it. And if you don't, then this gives folks something to use.

davidw 15y ago

If he's using your code, you have something to say, otherwise, not really, thankfully. I don't want to live in a world where SCO wins, or Apple puts the kibosh on Microsoft for creating an interface with icons and windows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microso... I think you should calm down, take a deep breath, accept the compliment, and see how you can work together. It sounds like he'd be happy to help you make it 'ready' faster.

molf 15y ago
Under European law this would be copyright infringement on account of copying the design. Don't believe it holds in the US, but I'm not 100% sure.
- virtualritz 15y ago
  Can you show us some references to this law? In Europe you can apply for design patents. Afaik doing so costs a four digit sum in EUR plus the patent lawyer that writes the legalese for you. However, to get such a patent the design must clearly be novel. Really, really novel. My uncle happens to be a patent lawyer a.d. who fought a lot of cases about product design for a big telco in the European patents court in his time. Knowing a few of his cases, I strongly doubt dcurtis design would be eligible for a design patent in Europe. The blog itself (it's functionality) would fail an attempt to patented for similar reasons. Apart from that, yes there is copyright everywhere but where this starts in cases like the one at hand is a gray area at best.
  - molf 15y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, but it appears to be covered in the Berne Convention [1] as "works of applied art". The copied design we saw this morning was probably "substantially similar" [2] to the original. Apparently designs are copyrighted in the US as well, in contrast to what I thought [3]. [1] http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/treaties/en/ip/berne/pdf/trtdocs_wo001.pdf http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/treaties/en/ip/berne/pd... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantial_similarity (in US copyright law) [3] http://norcal.gag.org/legalities/2004/legalities_no03.html http://norcal.gag.org/legalities/2004/legalities_no03.html (first question)

necolas 15y ago

> Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. Does that mean it will be open to _anyone_ and no longer only to people considered to be "intelligent, creative, and witty"?

irahul 15y ago

> Please take this site down and delete the Github repository. The work isn't yours. Any semi-competent programmer can reproduce it within a day or two(the OP did it in a shorter span of time). That won't help, and you aren't entitled to what you think you are. And the work is totally his. The design was too similar, but still, its his work. He didn't steal your css or images, and though you might feel rough about it, it doesn't make it theft as you are putting it again and again. > Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. The reason it's closed is really simple: it's not ready yet. Great for people who want to blog on Svbtle. If I don't and I like the idea, I am going to implement it and use it. I am glad we don't live in a world where you or anyone else can stop me from doing it. The hard part was coming up with the original concept and design - kudos to you for the great work. Reproducing it is easy, and I don't think you have any right to stop me from doing it. As another commenter pointed out, we don't actually want a world where Apple says MS stole its windows.

54mf 15y ago
If I paint Starry Night from scratch, entirely by myself, it's not my work. It's a rip-off.
- unalone 15y ago
  There's actually quite an open market for imitations of great art. They're not nearly as valuable as the originals, though, because painters like van Gogh created astonishing works of art and part of the value is being able to gaze upon original proof of astonishing human achievement. I would never repaint van Gogh, because I'd rather paint my own things. On the other hand, if I were to want a Thomas Kincade painting (for some ghastly reason), I'd definitely buy the cheapest reproduction I could find, because the original painting just wasn't that valuable to begin with.
  - 286c8cb04bda 15y ago
    > I would never repaint van Gogh, because I'd rather paint my own things. If I were a painter, I would paint me the hell out of some van Gogh. In every skill I've practiced seeing what the masters do, reproducing it (especially figuring out _why_ they did it that way) has been a very useful learning technique. More to the point of your post, and this story: Would I sell my van Gogh copies? Probably not. Not because I think there's something terribly wrong about it. Mostly because they'd still be inferior to the original. I would certainly give them away to friends who wanted to hang it in their den or library, though.

appleflaxen 15y ago

on your edit: pixel-for-pixel? Are you kidding? That would be hard to do in an html document even if it was your goal. Not only that, but I saw the original, and it wasn't. You have inverted the moral terrain, and you are now going to have to defend your own credibility / honesty when you are leveling those same accusations at someone else.

joshmz 15y ago
but think about the children! ;)

ErrantX 15y ago

It's hardly the most complex of designs; looking at this and comparing it to yours, he inherits the basic layout (which isn't really revolutionary) but doesn't have the complexity and flashiness - which seems to me the critical portion of the design. As to writing it.. you made a fairly big splashy announcement about this great new concept in blogging, and then made it invitation only. That's guaranteed to get push back from the community, especially one that considers ideas only good for execution! It seems fairly simple to implement - you might claim some moral ownership of the concept, but that probably won't hold up well, either, in this community. This is community that lives on the maxim of "release early and iterate", we're not always looking for a slick finished product. So now you have competition; may the best product win! (It may seem cruel, Dustin, but you do have an attitude - and that seems to have grated on people. So, maybe this gives you an experience of the same feeling. Just saying.) EDIT: Dustin's edited response is interesting; as a programmer I probably don't set as much store by the elements of design as he (naturally) does - simple things don't represent a creative element, to me in the same way. Which is interesting food for thought. Hopefully Nate will continue to move his design away from Dustin's

sp332 15y ago
Edit: If you're talking about the changed version this morning, check out the screenshots at the bottom to see what dcurtis was mad about. Basic layout? Also the color scheme, font hierarchy, whitespace around elements (which is a critical portion of the design), and basically every trick dcurtis used to draw the eye and maintain the mental flow of the app.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- ErrantX 15y ago
  I willingly admit that, not being a designer, I may well have miss the subtlety in the basic layout that is important. Is there really that much in the column sizing? With that said; you are right about font/colors (I hadn't noticed). I give credit to Nate for taking steps to address those similarities following feedback, and I hope he goes further with that.

obilgic 15y ago

It is too late for changing your altitude ! The most important thing was your initial reaction, and you failed to handle this.

irahul 15y ago

> As a designer, I find it somewhat perplexing that people here demand that code be directly copied for something like this be wrong. Design is more abstract than code, yes, but it's just as fundamental a part of the resulting product. Design is a fundamental part of the product - no body is contesting it. Personally I am taking exception to your exclusivity expectations. I have given it a lot of thought, and I believe the current optimum is he can rip off your design and only thing you can do about it is feel outraged. The alternative is scary - if this sort of exclusivity requirements are enforced, Apple would shutdown MS over supposedly copying windows and Android over copying "swipe to unlock". > Copying design, especially when the original source is so obvious, has damaging effects that are hard to quantify. Poor clones can directly damage the creation of a strong original brand and can preempt future creative product positioning. That's how free market works. > Please steal my ideas. Take them, manipulate them, and build them into something that is your own. I wouldn't have publicized my new platform if I didn't expect the ideas to be used. Just don't copy my implementation or designs. I can choose to play nice, or I can rip you off wholesale. As long as I am within the realms of law, it's fair game. You might not like it, but it's better than the alternatives where you can dictate what I can and can not do just because you did something first.

wglb 15y ago

But then there is this: http://www.dustincurtis.com/dear_american_airlines.html http://www.dustincurtis.com/dear_american_airlines.html

yummyfajitas 15y ago

Perhaps I overreacted. Takes a lot to admit this, especially publicly. Hopefully if I find myself in a similar situation, I'll do the same thing, and in less than an hour after my initial reaction. If HN had Kudos buttons, I'd hover my mouse over yours for a few seconds.

m_for_monkey 15y ago
Please don't do the same. I mean, apologizing is OK, but don't delete the original post, especially if there are twenty replies to it.
- amirmc 15y ago
  Yup. It makes following the thread really tricky and can even make some of the replies seem out-of-context.

jeremymims 15y ago

I honestly can't remember the last time a fellow HN user put together an unfinished project, wrote a blog post demonstrating the ideas behind the project, and then had his work so shamelessly ripped off on the very day it was created! To see the HN community defending this is really sad. Dustin himself had asked people not to copy his work and that he was releasing it publicly: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3742596 It's bullshit like this that discourages good ideas from being shared.

naryad 15y ago

> Just please don't copy my implementation or designs. I need those things to be sacred so I can craft experiences that are not diluted by external factors. I don't understand how reusing/copying something finely done reduce its sacredness/sanctity.

raldi 15y ago
Yeah, sounds disturbingly like the people looking to "protect marriage" in America.

waxjar 15y ago

Can someone copy-paste what was originally here? This discussion thread makes no sense at all.

gyardley 15y ago

I could be wrong, but I suspect the legitimacy or illegitimacy of copying design is a red herring here. Perhaps svbtle's invite-only status made people feel like outsiders, perhaps something you've done in the past rubbed someone the wrong way - either way, I suspect the personal dislike comes first and the justification for the action comes second. If the design of a much-beloved figure here was stolen, I suspect the reaction and the arguments in the thread would be very different. Stanley Fish wrote an interesting opinion piece recently about this impulse, applied to politics: http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/two-cheers-for-double-standards/ http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/two-cheers...