3 ms·

You still have not said you do not ever go to any establishments whatsoever where tipping occurs. If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you

You still have not said you do not ever go to any establishments whatsoever where tipping occurs. If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry.

Retric 3y ago
Do I go to restaurants or bars etc where tipping is expected no. Do I actively ask if a dentist office has a tip line, no I don’t.
- rendall 3y ago
  If you're in the US, this means you go to no bars, nor any restaurants, and you do not order any food delivered to your home. Nor do you ever take a taxi. Nor get a massage. Nor order room service at a hotel. I'm pretty skeptical.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Is that really so hard to believe? Most of those go away if you make your own meals.
    - rendall 3y ago
      Not tipping is reprehensible. For me, even bad wait service still gets 15%. Maybe they are having a bad day and could use a boost. They still brought me food and are but one member of a team of people. Good service gets 20%. Extraordinary service gets 25%. Maybe even 30% in trying, unusual circumstances. Same with food deliverers. Brown, no English, possibly illegal? Does not matter: pay a full 15% tip if tip is expected. I have seen people give these folks $2 on a $50 order in heavy rain at night. If it's raining or shit weather or you live in a 5th floor walkup, boost it to 20% I have only once in my 30 years of being an adult not tipped, and it was because the waiter disappeared with my $50 bill on a $14 check. After 20 minutes of waiting for change - at an extraordinarily busy, crowded, NYC restaurant- still assuming that she had simply forgotten, when I tracked her down and politely smiled and said "hello", she yelled at me that this was her tip. She knew better. She had tried to dodge me. This is a deeply held value of mine: the people who serve you honor you, and you treat them well, full stop. The workers are there because that is their best option. Making their day a bit more shit by not giving them an expected tip will not make their workplace less exploitative or whatever you think it should be. When GP says they recommend no tipping in order to put pressure on businesses not to be exploitative, I am already mortified. When called out that this isn't actually going to end tipping as a practice, they justify it the only way they can: that they don't tip because they don't use any services. Of that I'm skeptical. No, I don't doubt that some people live the lifestyle of no restaurants, taxis, delivery or spas. That's effectively me these days.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        I feel almost exactly the opposite. The practice of tipping is reprehensible. It was rooted in racism and still used for this in some areas. It shifts the risk of slow business from the proprietor who is more able to affect it to the workers who aren't. It misleads consumers by making prices effectively false advertising when the tip which is allegedly optional is in practice not. It's a mechanism for tax evasion, but only by higher income people who make an unusually large amount of money from tips. Everything about it should be destroyed. So I avoid establishments where this is expected, not because I think it's socially harmful not to do it -- I think it's socially harmful to do it. The reason I avoid them is that people get so upset when you tell them this, that it's easier to avoid the environment where it comes up. But even that feels like a cowardice because the result at scale would be to reduce the number of such establishments rather than to reduce the prevalence of tipping within those establishments. Which is the other reason it feels right to promote this. If you evaluate it as your own individual contribution, anyone by themselves will make no significant difference in either direction. A single digit number of dollars to a stranger at an interval of months or years is not going to affect their life. But if you evaluate the effect at scale -- what if everybody did this? -- the effect of everybody doing it would destroy the practice, which is a powerful good.
        rendall 3y ago
        To even have a hope of convincing me that you're not just an entitled, unprincipled miscreant, you have to do more than just "avoid" tipping establishments. You have to not go to any establishment that has tipping. If you do happen to find yourself at one for some reason, and you neither tip nor tell the server upfront before they take your order that they're not going to get a tip, then you're just a loser who takes advantage of the cheap prices set by the social convention that the customer adds 15% to the listed price. There is no convincing me otherwise.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > If you do happen to find yourself at one for some reason, and you neither tip nor tell the server upfront before they take your order that they're not going to get a tip, So you would be fine if someone, or everyone, actually did this? What if your issue is not with tipping whatsoever but rather with the default being 15% instead of 0%, so that tips are only for exceptional service?
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry. If you hire a landscaping company, the workers are underpaid either because they're in the country illegally or because that hiring practice is widespread and suppresses wages. So these are exploited workers. Tipping isn't generally expected for landscaping. Are you the exploiter if you hire one and don't tip the workers? If not, why doesn't that make you the exploiter? Should you also tip Amazon drivers and PhD candidates and women of every profession including ones who make more money than you? The criteria can't be that they would be getting exploited without it, because that's arguably true of all of them. Probably of everyone in one way or another. So is your argument just status quo bias?
- rendall 3y ago
  Exploitative was GP's assertion, not mine. The entire argument is suspect and self-serving.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    It doesn't matter which word you use. If a worker whose employer you're paying to do something is underpaying them, is it your obligation to make up the difference?
    - rendall 3y ago
      At least now you no longer pretend that your stance against tipping is but selfless regard for the plight of the exploited worker. Choose: a) Establishment A charges 40% more and pays the workers fairly with benefits and actively refuses tips, or b) Establishment B has the same menu and quality, only charges normal prices and has an expectation of tipping the staff 15%. Maybe from the inherently altruistic goodness of your heart you only ever go to Establishment A, lighter of wallet but warmed by your moral virtue, but most people will go to Establishment B and pay the tip. That's your choice. You might not like it but that's the reality. What you don't get to do is have establishment B's prices with establishment A's tipping policy. Maybe, being clever, you think c) Establishment C charges 15% more and pays it directly to the workers but they must actively refuse tips Believe it or not, C has been tried and it is universally disliked by staff and customers. Staff will happily go to work at B where they can earn more through hard work. Because most people are not no-tip assholes. Customers would rather go to B (and tip) where they can get better service for the same cost. To answer you directly, yes. Yes. If the convention is that the business charges less and you make up the difference, then yes you do. You have an obligation to make up the difference.

You still have not said you do not ever go to any establishments whatsoever where tipping occurs. If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry.

Retric 3y ago

Do I go to restaurants or bars etc where tipping is expected no. Do I actively ask if a dentist office has a tip line, no I don’t.

rendall 3y ago
If you're in the US, this means you go to no bars, nor any restaurants, and you do not order any food delivered to your home. Nor do you ever take a taxi. Nor get a massage. Nor order room service at a hotel. I'm pretty skeptical.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Is that really so hard to believe? Most of those go away if you make your own meals.
  - rendall 3y ago
    Not tipping is reprehensible. For me, even bad wait service still gets 15%. Maybe they are having a bad day and could use a boost. They still brought me food and are but one member of a team of people. Good service gets 20%. Extraordinary service gets 25%. Maybe even 30% in trying, unusual circumstances. Same with food deliverers. Brown, no English, possibly illegal? Does not matter: pay a full 15% tip if tip is expected. I have seen people give these folks $2 on a $50 order in heavy rain at night. If it's raining or shit weather or you live in a 5th floor walkup, boost it to 20% I have only once in my 30 years of being an adult not tipped, and it was because the waiter disappeared with my $50 bill on a $14 check. After 20 minutes of waiting for change - at an extraordinarily busy, crowded, NYC restaurant- still assuming that she had simply forgotten, when I tracked her down and politely smiled and said "hello", she yelled at me that this was her tip. She knew better. She had tried to dodge me. This is a deeply held value of mine: the people who serve you honor you, and you treat them well, full stop. The workers are there because that is their best option. Making their day a bit more shit by not giving them an expected tip will not make their workplace less exploitative or whatever you think it should be. When GP says they recommend no tipping in order to put pressure on businesses not to be exploitative, I am already mortified. When called out that this isn't actually going to end tipping as a practice, they justify it the only way they can: that they don't tip because they don't use any services. Of that I'm skeptical. No, I don't doubt that some people live the lifestyle of no restaurants, taxis, delivery or spas. That's effectively me these days.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      I feel almost exactly the opposite. The practice of tipping is reprehensible. It was rooted in racism and still used for this in some areas. It shifts the risk of slow business from the proprietor who is more able to affect it to the workers who aren't. It misleads consumers by making prices effectively false advertising when the tip which is allegedly optional is in practice not. It's a mechanism for tax evasion, but only by higher income people who make an unusually large amount of money from tips. Everything about it should be destroyed. So I avoid establishments where this is expected, not because I think it's socially harmful not to do it -- I think it's socially harmful to do it. The reason I avoid them is that people get so upset when you tell them this, that it's easier to avoid the environment where it comes up. But even that feels like a cowardice because the result at scale would be to reduce the number of such establishments rather than to reduce the prevalence of tipping within those establishments. Which is the other reason it feels right to promote this. If you evaluate it as your own individual contribution, anyone by themselves will make no significant difference in either direction. A single digit number of dollars to a stranger at an interval of months or years is not going to affect their life. But if you evaluate the effect at scale -- what if everybody did this? -- the effect of everybody doing it would destroy the practice, which is a powerful good.
      - rendall 3y ago
        To even have a hope of convincing me that you're not just an entitled, unprincipled miscreant, you have to do more than just "avoid" tipping establishments. You have to not go to any establishment that has tipping. If you do happen to find yourself at one for some reason, and you neither tip nor tell the server upfront before they take your order that they're not going to get a tip, then you're just a loser who takes advantage of the cheap prices set by the social convention that the customer adds 15% to the listed price. There is no convincing me otherwise.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > If you do happen to find yourself at one for some reason, and you neither tip nor tell the server upfront before they take your order that they're not going to get a tip, So you would be fine if someone, or everyone, actually did this? What if your issue is not with tipping whatsoever but rather with the default being 15% instead of 0%, so that tips are only for exceptional service?

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry. If you hire a landscaping company, the workers are underpaid either because they're in the country illegally or because that hiring practice is widespread and suppresses wages. So these are exploited workers. Tipping isn't generally expected for landscaping. Are you the exploiter if you hire one and don't tip the workers? If not, why doesn't that make you the exploiter? Should you also tip Amazon drivers and PhD candidates and women of every profession including ones who make more money than you? The criteria can't be that they would be getting exploited without it, because that's arguably true of all of them. Probably of everyone in one way or another. So is your argument just status quo bias?

rendall 3y ago
Exploitative was GP's assertion, not mine. The entire argument is suspect and self-serving.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  It doesn't matter which word you use. If a worker whose employer you're paying to do something is underpaying them, is it your obligation to make up the difference?
  - rendall 3y ago
    At least now you no longer pretend that your stance against tipping is but selfless regard for the plight of the exploited worker. Choose: a) Establishment A charges 40% more and pays the workers fairly with benefits and actively refuses tips, or b) Establishment B has the same menu and quality, only charges normal prices and has an expectation of tipping the staff 15%. Maybe from the inherently altruistic goodness of your heart you only ever go to Establishment A, lighter of wallet but warmed by your moral virtue, but most people will go to Establishment B and pay the tip. That's your choice. You might not like it but that's the reality. What you don't get to do is have establishment B's prices with establishment A's tipping policy. Maybe, being clever, you think c) Establishment C charges 15% more and pays it directly to the workers but they must actively refuse tips Believe it or not, C has been tried and it is universally disliked by staff and customers. Staff will happily go to work at B where they can earn more through hard work. Because most people are not no-tip assholes. Customers would rather go to B (and tip) where they can get better service for the same cost. To answer you directly, yes. Yes. If the convention is that the business charges less and you make up the difference, then yes you do. You have an obligation to make up the difference.