6 ms·

By all means, boycott businesses that you don't believe pay their workers fairly. That's not "opting out of tipping" and isn't the behavior the OP described.

Retric 3y ago
You obviously failed to read what I said. “I actively boycott such businesses” I boycott and recommend others tip less if they feel the need to go to such places.
- rendall 3y ago
  You wrote that you boycott "exploitive work environments" which is not stating clearly that you never, ever, without exception go to any establishment where staff expects a tip. Waiters or bartenders at some popular restaurants can earn an annual income in the 6 figures. So, these places, not exploitative but highly desirable, are fair game for you to visit and then not tip or scale down tipping.
  - Retric 3y ago
    All businesses where tipping makes up a significant portion of someone’s wages are exploitive including bartenders making 6 figures. Many businesses such as exterminators haven’t crossed that threshold, but still add a tipping line to bills because it’s got no downside to them.
    - rendall 3y ago
      You still have not said you do not ever go to any establishments whatsoever where tipping occurs. If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry.
      - Retric 3y ago
        Do I go to restaurants or bars etc where tipping is expected no. Do I actively ask if a dentist office has a tip line, no I don’t.
        rendall 3y ago
        If you're in the US, this means you go to no bars, nor any restaurants, and you do not order any food delivered to your home. Nor do you ever take a taxi. Nor get a massage. Nor order room service at a hotel. I'm pretty skeptical.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        Is that really so hard to believe? Most of those go away if you make your own meals.
        rendall 3y ago
        Not tipping is reprehensible. For me, even bad wait service still gets 15%. Maybe they are having a bad day and could use a boost. They still brought me food and are but one member of a team of people. Good service gets 20%. Extraordinary service gets 25%. Maybe even 30% in trying, unusual circumstances. Same with food deliverers. Brown, no English, possibly illegal? Does not matter: pay a full 15% tip if tip is expected. I have seen people give these folks $2 on a $50 order in heavy rain at night. If it's raining or shit weather or you live in a 5th floor walkup, boost it to 20% I have only once in my 30 years of being an adult not tipped, and it was because the waiter disappeared with my $50 bill on a $14 check. After 20 minutes of waiting for change - at an extraordinarily busy, crowded, NYC restaurant- still assuming that she had simply forgotten, when I tracked her down and politely smiled and said "hello", she yelled at me that this was her tip. She knew better. She had tried to dodge me. This is a deeply held value of mine: the people who serve you honor you, and you treat them well, full stop. The workers are there because that is their best option. Making their day a bit more shit by not giving them an expected tip will not make their workplace less exploitative or whatever you think it should be. When GP says they recommend no tipping in order to put pressure on businesses not to be exploitative, I am already mortified. When called out that this isn't actually going to end tipping as a practice, they justify it the only way they can: that they don't tip because they don't use any services. Of that I'm skeptical. No, I don't doubt that some people live the lifestyle of no restaurants, taxis, delivery or spas. That's effectively me these days.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry. If you hire a landscaping company, the workers are underpaid either because they're in the country illegally or because that hiring practice is widespread and suppresses wages. So these are exploited workers. Tipping isn't generally expected for landscaping. Are you the exploiter if you hire one and don't tip the workers? If not, why doesn't that make you the exploiter? Should you also tip Amazon drivers and PhD candidates and women of every profession including ones who make more money than you? The criteria can't be that they would be getting exploited without it, because that's arguably true of all of them. Probably of everyone in one way or another. So is your argument just status quo bias?
        rendall 3y ago
        Exploitative was GP's assertion, not mine. The entire argument is suspect and self-serving.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        It doesn't matter which word you use. If a worker whose employer you're paying to do something is underpaying them, is it your obligation to make up the difference?
        rendall 3y ago
        At least now you no longer pretend that your stance against tipping is but selfless regard for the plight of the exploited worker. Choose: a) Establishment A charges 40% more and pays the workers fairly with benefits and actively refuses tips, or b) Establishment B has the same menu and quality, only charges normal prices and has an expectation of tipping the staff 15%. Maybe from the inherently altruistic goodness of your heart you only ever go to Establishment A, lighter of wallet but warmed by your moral virtue, but most people will go to Establishment B and pay the tip. That's your choice. You might not like it but that's the reality. What you don't get to do is have establishment B's prices with establishment A's tipping policy. Maybe, being clever, you think c) Establishment C charges 15% more and pays it directly to the workers but they must actively refuse tips Believe it or not, C has been tried and it is universally disliked by staff and customers. Staff will happily go to work at B where they can earn more through hard work. Because most people are not no-tip assholes. Customers would rather go to B (and tip) where they can get better service for the same cost. To answer you directly, yes. Yes. If the convention is that the business charges less and you make up the difference, then yes you do. You have an obligation to make up the difference.
- etchalon 3y ago
  You "obviously" failed to understand that "OP" means the root of this thread, and not your comment. However, "recommending others tip less" is also not boycotting a business. You're recommending people harm the people least in control of the situation to make a point to the people least harmed by the action. It's ridiculous. Boycott or tip appropriately. Those are your options.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Tip less is perfectly reasonable thing to suggest. Sure it’s your wedding anniversary, no that doesn’t mean you should tip someone 100% the cost of the meal. Doing so is actively harmful. If you feel the desire to leave an extravagant tip, resist the impulse. PS: OP said, “Tipping shouldn't happen.” but provided no means to get to that point.
- ForestCritter 3y ago
  tipping less just means the employee legally gets paid less than minimum wage and the restaurant owners really don't care as long as they don't have to pay full wages. the only way to solve tipping is to change the minimum wage laws that allow lower wages for tipping industries.

Retric 3y ago

You obviously failed to read what I said. “I actively boycott such businesses” I boycott and recommend others tip less if they feel the need to go to such places.

rendall 3y ago
You wrote that you boycott "exploitive work environments" which is not stating clearly that you never, ever, without exception go to any establishment where staff expects a tip. Waiters or bartenders at some popular restaurants can earn an annual income in the 6 figures. So, these places, not exploitative but highly desirable, are fair game for you to visit and then not tip or scale down tipping.
- Retric 3y ago
  All businesses where tipping makes up a significant portion of someone’s wages are exploitive including bartenders making 6 figures. Many businesses such as exterminators haven’t crossed that threshold, but still add a tipping line to bills because it’s got no downside to them.
  - rendall 3y ago
    You still have not said you do not ever go to any establishments whatsoever where tipping occurs. If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry.
    - Retric 3y ago
      Do I go to restaurants or bars etc where tipping is expected no. Do I actively ask if a dentist office has a tip line, no I don’t.
      - rendall 3y ago
        If you're in the US, this means you go to no bars, nor any restaurants, and you do not order any food delivered to your home. Nor do you ever take a taxi. Nor get a massage. Nor order room service at a hotel. I'm pretty skeptical.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        Is that really so hard to believe? Most of those go away if you make your own meals.
        rendall 3y ago
        Not tipping is reprehensible. For me, even bad wait service still gets 15%. Maybe they are having a bad day and could use a boost. They still brought me food and are but one member of a team of people. Good service gets 20%. Extraordinary service gets 25%. Maybe even 30% in trying, unusual circumstances. Same with food deliverers. Brown, no English, possibly illegal? Does not matter: pay a full 15% tip if tip is expected. I have seen people give these folks $2 on a $50 order in heavy rain at night. If it's raining or shit weather or you live in a 5th floor walkup, boost it to 20% I have only once in my 30 years of being an adult not tipped, and it was because the waiter disappeared with my $50 bill on a $14 check. After 20 minutes of waiting for change - at an extraordinarily busy, crowded, NYC restaurant- still assuming that she had simply forgotten, when I tracked her down and politely smiled and said "hello", she yelled at me that this was her tip. She knew better. She had tried to dodge me. This is a deeply held value of mine: the people who serve you honor you, and you treat them well, full stop. The workers are there because that is their best option. Making their day a bit more shit by not giving them an expected tip will not make their workplace less exploitative or whatever you think it should be. When GP says they recommend no tipping in order to put pressure on businesses not to be exploitative, I am already mortified. When called out that this isn't actually going to end tipping as a practice, they justify it the only way they can: that they don't tip because they don't use any services. Of that I'm skeptical. No, I don't doubt that some people live the lifestyle of no restaurants, taxis, delivery or spas. That's effectively me these days.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > If you do, and then even "scale down" your tip, then it's you who are the exploiter, sorry. If you hire a landscaping company, the workers are underpaid either because they're in the country illegally or because that hiring practice is widespread and suppresses wages. So these are exploited workers. Tipping isn't generally expected for landscaping. Are you the exploiter if you hire one and don't tip the workers? If not, why doesn't that make you the exploiter? Should you also tip Amazon drivers and PhD candidates and women of every profession including ones who make more money than you? The criteria can't be that they would be getting exploited without it, because that's arguably true of all of them. Probably of everyone in one way or another. So is your argument just status quo bias?
      - rendall 3y ago
        Exploitative was GP's assertion, not mine. The entire argument is suspect and self-serving.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        It doesn't matter which word you use. If a worker whose employer you're paying to do something is underpaying them, is it your obligation to make up the difference?
        rendall 3y ago
        At least now you no longer pretend that your stance against tipping is but selfless regard for the plight of the exploited worker. Choose: a) Establishment A charges 40% more and pays the workers fairly with benefits and actively refuses tips, or b) Establishment B has the same menu and quality, only charges normal prices and has an expectation of tipping the staff 15%. Maybe from the inherently altruistic goodness of your heart you only ever go to Establishment A, lighter of wallet but warmed by your moral virtue, but most people will go to Establishment B and pay the tip. That's your choice. You might not like it but that's the reality. What you don't get to do is have establishment B's prices with establishment A's tipping policy. Maybe, being clever, you think c) Establishment C charges 15% more and pays it directly to the workers but they must actively refuse tips Believe it or not, C has been tried and it is universally disliked by staff and customers. Staff will happily go to work at B where they can earn more through hard work. Because most people are not no-tip assholes. Customers would rather go to B (and tip) where they can get better service for the same cost. To answer you directly, yes. Yes. If the convention is that the business charges less and you make up the difference, then yes you do. You have an obligation to make up the difference.
etchalon 3y ago
You "obviously" failed to understand that "OP" means the root of this thread, and not your comment. However, "recommending others tip less" is also not boycotting a business. You're recommending people harm the people least in control of the situation to make a point to the people least harmed by the action. It's ridiculous. Boycott or tip appropriately. Those are your options.
- Retric 3y ago
  Tip less is perfectly reasonable thing to suggest. Sure it’s your wedding anniversary, no that doesn’t mean you should tip someone 100% the cost of the meal. Doing so is actively harmful. If you feel the desire to leave an extravagant tip, resist the impulse. PS: OP said, “Tipping shouldn't happen.” but provided no means to get to that point.
ForestCritter 3y ago
tipping less just means the employee legally gets paid less than minimum wage and the restaurant owners really don't care as long as they don't have to pay full wages. the only way to solve tipping is to change the minimum wage laws that allow lower wages for tipping industries.