3 ms·

> problematic from a cross-platform or usability standpoint What do you mean by this?

catapart 3y ago
I mean "if this app comes out and has limitations on either your OS (desktop or mobile), your method of file replication (iCloud integration can be done even if you're using an agnostic file type but it could, alternatively, be tightly-coupled), your third-party hardware (any stylus should work), or any other area of application and binary development that would be detrimental to user freedom" Basically - even if all those things are locked down, instead of open like they SHOULD* be, it's still a net positive. *that's my editorializing; all apps SHOULD be web apps (or at least delivered without installation), unless there's some reason you simply can't get the performance you need out of web assembly (often the case, today; hopefully not often true in the future).
- brundolf 3y ago
  For what it's worth, Procreate supports every relevant file type and iPads have a file manager now, support USB-C flash drives, etc. In my experience compatibility has never been a problem with these apps.
- criddell 3y ago
  A well written native app will always perform better than a well written web app. I'm considering performance to be more than just UI responsiveness. I include CPU, battery, network, and memory usage.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  > that's my editorializing; all apps SHOULD be web apps Jesus god, no. I like having excellent accessibility features that actually work and not seeing my battery get mugged and left for dead.
  - johnzim 3y ago
    Also people massively underestimate how great the graphics libraries provided by Apple are. The thought of doing a lot of this stuff in WebTech gives me heartburn. Like our main compositing tool on the web - Canvas is basically Quartz, which I love for that reason but there's a _huge_ amount of power that you get from native Toolkits that have been developed in the intervening years.
    - hotnfresh 3y ago
      I legit think a lot of Web UI fans have just never, ever done serious work in any of several half-decent-or-better native UI toolkit w/ supporting libraries. If they had, they’d riot. Such an incredible amount of wasted person-hours, both for the people doing the work and the poor folks stuck using the resulting jank-fest.
      - catapart 3y ago
        I'm actually a big fan of ImGui (via DearImGui, at least) for immediate mode stuff. I can also appreciate Qt for what it's good at. As far as experimental stuff, I'm a very big fan of Makepad's 3D rendering context even for forms. Coming from a games background, I prefer the shader model to most other UI implementations. Especially vector based drawing; that stuff is so much harder to deal with. I'm very happy with what I can achieve in CSS, these days, but it's just a million times easier to do any of it with a some planes and a shader. Give me beziers and pixels over box models and anchors any day.
    - gochi 3y ago
      A lot of this stuff is super easy in webtech, no idea why it gives you heartburn, maybe you're just more used to the native toolkits (or Swift in general)?
  - catapart 3y ago
    Yeah, I understand this reaction, but I feel like maybe you're limiting your scope of web app to "browser ui, native-library-consuming application". What I'm actually talking about is the WASI and wasm projects and the even more general idea of a compilation and/or execution of machine code for a specific CPU/OS/environment based on contracts within the system interface and the wasm binaries. I know there aren't a lot of public examples of any of that, right now, so it's hard to be inclusive of that kind of thing when considering 'web apps'. Maybe I'm premature in being so loose with the term. But I do think this stuff is closer than a lot of people realize.

I mean "if this app comes out and has limitations on either your OS (desktop or mobile), your method of file replication (iCloud integration can be done even if you're using an agnostic file type but it could, alternatively, be tightly-coupled), your third-party hardware (any stylus should work), or any other area of application and binary development that would be detrimental to user freedom" Basically - even if all those things are locked down, instead of open like they SHOULD* be, it's still a net positive. *that's my editorializing; all apps SHOULD be web apps (or at least delivered without installation), unless there's some reason you simply can't get the performance you need out of web assembly (often the case, today; hopefully not often true in the future).

brundolf 3y ago
For what it's worth, Procreate supports every relevant file type and iPads have a file manager now, support USB-C flash drives, etc. In my experience compatibility has never been a problem with these apps.
criddell 3y ago
A well written native app will always perform better than a well written web app. I'm considering performance to be more than just UI responsiveness. I include CPU, battery, network, and memory usage.
hotnfresh 3y ago
> that's my editorializing; all apps SHOULD be web apps Jesus god, no. I like having excellent accessibility features that actually work and not seeing my battery get mugged and left for dead.
- johnzim 3y ago
  Also people massively underestimate how great the graphics libraries provided by Apple are. The thought of doing a lot of this stuff in WebTech gives me heartburn. Like our main compositing tool on the web - Canvas is basically Quartz, which I love for that reason but there's a _huge_ amount of power that you get from native Toolkits that have been developed in the intervening years.
  - hotnfresh 3y ago
    I legit think a lot of Web UI fans have just never, ever done serious work in any of several half-decent-or-better native UI toolkit w/ supporting libraries. If they had, they’d riot. Such an incredible amount of wasted person-hours, both for the people doing the work and the poor folks stuck using the resulting jank-fest.
    - catapart 3y ago
      I'm actually a big fan of ImGui (via DearImGui, at least) for immediate mode stuff. I can also appreciate Qt for what it's good at. As far as experimental stuff, I'm a very big fan of Makepad's 3D rendering context even for forms. Coming from a games background, I prefer the shader model to most other UI implementations. Especially vector based drawing; that stuff is so much harder to deal with. I'm very happy with what I can achieve in CSS, these days, but it's just a million times easier to do any of it with a some planes and a shader. Give me beziers and pixels over box models and anchors any day.
  - gochi 3y ago
    A lot of this stuff is super easy in webtech, no idea why it gives you heartburn, maybe you're just more used to the native toolkits (or Swift in general)?
- catapart 3y ago
  Yeah, I understand this reaction, but I feel like maybe you're limiting your scope of web app to "browser ui, native-library-consuming application". What I'm actually talking about is the WASI and wasm projects and the even more general idea of a compilation and/or execution of machine code for a specific CPU/OS/environment based on contracts within the system interface and the wasm binaries. I know there aren't a lot of public examples of any of that, right now, so it's hard to be inclusive of that kind of thing when considering 'web apps'. Maybe I'm premature in being so loose with the term. But I do think this stuff is closer than a lot of people realize.