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Critical skepticism should be a core competence as well. Even well known and highly respected journals like Nature or NYT likely have biases at the editor/peer

by umvi 3y ago

Critical skepticism should be a core competence as well. Even well known and highly respected journals like Nature or NYT likely have biases at the editor/peer review level. They should be read with at least one eye toward skepticism that [money/prestige/desire to get published/etc] have influenced the results of the paper/article. I've read that scientists often have to "massage" their papers if publishing on a divisive/politicized topic like climate change or transgenderism in order to not have their paper dismissed out of hand (for example, one I saw recently: https://patricktbrown.org/2023/09/05/the-not-so-secret-formula-for-publishing-a-high-profile-climate-change-research-paper/ https://patricktbrown.org/2023/09/05/the-not-so-secret-formu...).

johnny22 3y ago
honestly i see the opposite more often. people being skeptical to the point of absurdity. They also never seem to trust anybody.
- walr000s 3y ago
  There's plenty of stuff in NYT that should by eyed with extreme skepticism. It's got an agenda and is bending its content around that agenda like every other mainstream commercial news outlet.
  - downWidOutaFite 3y ago
    As if non-mainstream news outlets are objective.
  - throw10920 3y ago
    I would relax "plenty of stuff" to "everything" - the New York Times has adopted a policy of "advocacy over reporting" for several years now[1] and is untrustworthy as a journalistic entity as a result. They're no long a news organization, they're an activism organization that uses news as their political vehicle. [1] https://www.city-journal.org/article/slouching-toward-post-journalism https://www.city-journal.org/article/slouching-toward-post-j...
- hackerlight 3y ago
  This is a lot more common, but I wouldn't call this proper skepticism. It's usually just people being cynical and biased in their own way. They've subscribed to a political tribe and social media echo chamber that happens to be opposed to something in Nature, and that's the reason why they're doubting whatever is written in Nature, with some made-up justification that sounds plausible only within that echo chamber but is transparently wrong to people not caught up in that particular group think. That said, actual skepticism should be applied everywhere, including towards Nature.
  - Mordisquitos 3y ago
    Do you think cynical mistrust (so-called "scepticism") truly is more common than lack of healthy scepticism towards information provided by trusted sources? Or is it rather more obnoxiously salient? Someone who rejects Nature claiming that the Earth is an oblate spheroid is much more likely to make their voice heard than someone who would happily accept whatever is published in a scientific journal with no question whatsoever. Either way, at face value, I do agree that cynical mistrust (especially when partisan) is more immediately damaging to society than uncritical absolute trust, regardless of each of their relative frequencies. However, I do believe that each of these phenomena reinforce each other in a vicious cycle. The contrarian denialist feels vindicated when he sees the blind acceptance placed on certain sources by the naïve truster on the other end of the political spectrum. The naïve truster, on the other hand, feels that any criticism or questioning directed towards trusted sources on his side is to behave like the contrarian denialist would. Hence the mutual polarisation.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- throw10920 3y ago
  This is dependent on your social circle. My experience agrees with GP and disagrees with yours. Both over-skepticism and under-skepticism are bad and should be recognized and fought. If you only oppose one of them, then it's likely because your preferred party is, too.
- Modified3019 3y ago
  While this can come about perfectly naturally when an intellectually lazy internal ruling establishment only wants agreement instead of critical thinking, it should also be noted that such a result is also a deliberate end goal of social attacks by external hostile actors, such the russian government and it's "firehose of falsehood" method of propaganda. This can result in paralysis and/or radicalization of the effected population depending on how it's used. Unfortunately we kind of have both the internal and external problems in effect right now.
anon373839 3y ago
Reading that article, all I can think of is the bald-faced lies the public was told during the pandemic because they were convenient for steering behavior. My trust in “science” was seriously damaged by that episode.
- DinoDad13 3y ago
  Which bald face lies? Like ivermectin?
  - gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
    Off the top of my head? The vaccines were sterilizing. Nope not at all. Mildly reduced the chance of transmission while sick. But Pfizer was “moving at the speed of science”. Another is that natural immunity was worse than getting the vaccine. I’m sure there’s more, but the comment Will be flagged so why bother?
    - throw10920 3y ago
      I'm curious. Please email me (link in bio https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw10920 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw10920). Also I suggest adding your (or an) email (or some other contact info) to your profile.
      - 15457345234 3y ago
        Just so you know, it's a bit creepy when someone makes a post on a contentious topic to immediately want to take the discussion offline and to request their PII. The more paranoid in the audience will take this type of behavior as evidence that lists are being kept of 'unbelievers' and that they are 'being silenced' etc etc etc. You know the type of thing. Just letting you know how this comes off.
    - DinoDad13 3y ago
      Your comment was flagged for being full of shit. And you proved why.
darkteflon 3y ago
It’s a fair point, and it’s a shame that something we took for granted growing up in the 90s - a culture of being reflexively critical of all media, whether state or private - now finds itself awkwardly shoehorned into the hellscape of 21st century American politics. I will say also though that I wouldn’t _personally_ equate the sort of biases you allude to in your comment - extremely troubling though they are - with content produced by actual malicious actors. My litmus test for whether to respond to a piece of media with healthy skepticism or outright rejection often comes down to a simple gut-check: “Is this coming - ultimately - from a place of hate?”. I’ve found that to be surprisingly effective. I also feel like that was a political lesson we were supposed to have learned from 20th century history - maybe the most significant and enduring lesson. But here we are again, and it’s true what they say: every generation has to fight for it.
- yesco 3y ago
  > My litmus test for whether to respond to a piece of media with healthy skepticism or outright rejection often comes down to a simple gut-check: “Is this coming - ultimately - from a place of hate?”. I’ve found that to be surprisingly effective. How exactly are you confirming this "surprising effectiveness"? Going with what your gut thinks is literally the default for everyone, it's the opposite of critical thinking. I think what you are saying ultimately reduces down to the question: 'Do you like this person?', which is a fine position to have, but don't lie to yourself that it's anything other than that.
  - darkteflon 3y ago
    Claims made in circumstances where there’s evidence of hatred or malice - either as motive or intent - warrant scepticism and a higher burden of proof relative to other claims since, as we know from recent and not-so-recent history, the weaponisation of hate is both a very effective and frequently-deployed political strategy. That formulation okay with you? It’s just an heuristic. Apparently one that makes no sense to you. Have a great weekend.
    - Jensson 3y ago

by umvi 3y ago

johnny22 3y ago

honestly i see the opposite more often. people being skeptical to the point of absurdity. They also never seem to trust anybody.

walr000s 3y ago
There's plenty of stuff in NYT that should by eyed with extreme skepticism. It's got an agenda and is bending its content around that agenda like every other mainstream commercial news outlet.
- downWidOutaFite 3y ago
  As if non-mainstream news outlets are objective.
- throw10920 3y ago
  I would relax "plenty of stuff" to "everything" - the New York Times has adopted a policy of "advocacy over reporting" for several years now[1] and is untrustworthy as a journalistic entity as a result. They're no long a news organization, they're an activism organization that uses news as their political vehicle. [1] https://www.city-journal.org/article/slouching-toward-post-journalism https://www.city-journal.org/article/slouching-toward-post-j...
hackerlight 3y ago
This is a lot more common, but I wouldn't call this proper skepticism. It's usually just people being cynical and biased in their own way. They've subscribed to a political tribe and social media echo chamber that happens to be opposed to something in Nature, and that's the reason why they're doubting whatever is written in Nature, with some made-up justification that sounds plausible only within that echo chamber but is transparently wrong to people not caught up in that particular group think. That said, actual skepticism should be applied everywhere, including towards Nature.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  Do you think cynical mistrust (so-called "scepticism") truly is more common than lack of healthy scepticism towards information provided by trusted sources? Or is it rather more obnoxiously salient? Someone who rejects Nature claiming that the Earth is an oblate spheroid is much more likely to make their voice heard than someone who would happily accept whatever is published in a scientific journal with no question whatsoever. Either way, at face value, I do agree that cynical mistrust (especially when partisan) is more immediately damaging to society than uncritical absolute trust, regardless of each of their relative frequencies. However, I do believe that each of these phenomena reinforce each other in a vicious cycle. The contrarian denialist feels vindicated when he sees the blind acceptance placed on certain sources by the naïve truster on the other end of the political spectrum. The naïve truster, on the other hand, feels that any criticism or questioning directed towards trusted sources on his side is to behave like the contrarian denialist would. Hence the mutual polarisation.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
throw10920 3y ago
This is dependent on your social circle. My experience agrees with GP and disagrees with yours. Both over-skepticism and under-skepticism are bad and should be recognized and fought. If you only oppose one of them, then it's likely because your preferred party is, too.
Modified3019 3y ago
While this can come about perfectly naturally when an intellectually lazy internal ruling establishment only wants agreement instead of critical thinking, it should also be noted that such a result is also a deliberate end goal of social attacks by external hostile actors, such the russian government and it's "firehose of falsehood" method of propaganda. This can result in paralysis and/or radicalization of the effected population depending on how it's used. Unfortunately we kind of have both the internal and external problems in effect right now.

anon373839 3y ago

Reading that article, all I can think of is the bald-faced lies the public was told during the pandemic because they were convenient for steering behavior. My trust in “science” was seriously damaged by that episode.

DinoDad13 3y ago
Which bald face lies? Like ivermectin?
- gadflyinyoureye 3y ago
  Off the top of my head? The vaccines were sterilizing. Nope not at all. Mildly reduced the chance of transmission while sick. But Pfizer was “moving at the speed of science”. Another is that natural immunity was worse than getting the vaccine. I’m sure there’s more, but the comment Will be flagged so why bother?
  - throw10920 3y ago
    I'm curious. Please email me (link in bio https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw10920 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw10920). Also I suggest adding your (or an) email (or some other contact info) to your profile.
    - 15457345234 3y ago
      Just so you know, it's a bit creepy when someone makes a post on a contentious topic to immediately want to take the discussion offline and to request their PII. The more paranoid in the audience will take this type of behavior as evidence that lists are being kept of 'unbelievers' and that they are 'being silenced' etc etc etc. You know the type of thing. Just letting you know how this comes off.
  - DinoDad13 3y ago
    Your comment was flagged for being full of shit. And you proved why.

darkteflon 3y ago

It’s a fair point, and it’s a shame that something we took for granted growing up in the 90s - a culture of being reflexively critical of all media, whether state or private - now finds itself awkwardly shoehorned into the hellscape of 21st century American politics. I will say also though that I wouldn’t _personally_ equate the sort of biases you allude to in your comment - extremely troubling though they are - with content produced by actual malicious actors. My litmus test for whether to respond to a piece of media with healthy skepticism or outright rejection often comes down to a simple gut-check: “Is this coming - ultimately - from a place of hate?”. I’ve found that to be surprisingly effective. I also feel like that was a political lesson we were supposed to have learned from 20th century history - maybe the most significant and enduring lesson. But here we are again, and it’s true what they say: every generation has to fight for it.

yesco 3y ago
> My litmus test for whether to respond to a piece of media with healthy skepticism or outright rejection often comes down to a simple gut-check: “Is this coming - ultimately - from a place of hate?”. I’ve found that to be surprisingly effective. How exactly are you confirming this "surprising effectiveness"? Going with what your gut thinks is literally the default for everyone, it's the opposite of critical thinking. I think what you are saying ultimately reduces down to the question: 'Do you like this person?', which is a fine position to have, but don't lie to yourself that it's anything other than that.
- darkteflon 3y ago
  Claims made in circumstances where there’s evidence of hatred or malice - either as motive or intent - warrant scepticism and a higher burden of proof relative to other claims since, as we know from recent and not-so-recent history, the weaponisation of hate is both a very effective and frequently-deployed political strategy. That formulation okay with you? It’s just an heuristic. Apparently one that makes no sense to you. Have a great weekend.
  - Jensson 3y ago