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Notes from UPenn's Forum on Brogramming and Sexism in Computer Science
- davvilla 15y agoHahaha that's so cool. Thats my laptop right there!
- driverdan 15y agoIt was funny when it was just a joke mocking foolishness. It was no longer funny when people intentionally began doing it.
- tessr 15y agoI agree 100%. It's a fantastic piece of satire. Now that people are going around boasting about how they go to parties with naked women? It's not so cool. When you take into account that the Sqoot API Jam was very brogrammer-like, too (although they never used the term)... Well, that just underscores that a) People now want to be brogrammers and b) Brogramming is inherently exclusive to women.
- dmbass 15y agoBrogrammers are the Jersey Shore of programming. A small, laughable, easily ignored minority of the population. They are a joke whether they take themselves seriously or not. If you don't like them, spend your time with programmers who don't brag about sex parties. And why do you want to be a part of brogramming if you hate it so much? (inferred from your comment on exclusivity to men as a problem)
- tessr 15y agoI don't. I didn't elaborate much on how this got started, but this began when the CS group at my school (I'm on the board) considered printing shirts with "Brogrammer" on them. For all the CS students. Do you understand, then, why exclusivity is a problem? Also, I'm sorry that so much of my post was overwhelmed by BROGRAMMING. The forum was really about sexism in CS, too.
- dmbass 15y agoNot really. Would you have preferred a shirt that says HOGRAMMER? I just think "exclusivity" is a super weak argument against the term. Clearly you feel strongly about this so maybe explore exactly what the problem is until you can articulate it in a more direct manner. There are most likely legitimate problems of sexism in CS, but BROGRAMMING is more sensational than important.
- tessr 15y agoAs I've said before, in many places on this thread, this was less me sharing my feelings and more of a synthesis of a variety of ideas shared by a group of computer science students, male and female, at the University of Pennsylvania. (We did discuss the possibility of Hogrammer, yes.)
- parfe 15y agoA quick (but not comprehensive, conclusive, or popularly agreed upon!) guide for determining if you plan on doing something sexist, ask yourself: "Is this for Men? Or is this for People?" e.g. Advertising/Hiring "all-female servants" is for men. "Serving food and drinks" is for people. Side-note: If you ever think to respond with "But what about lesbians?" you are attempting to justify something sexist. Start over and cater to People.
- tessr 15y agoYes! (And what about men who aren't interested in women, too?)
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- wpietri 15y agoFor my fellow guys who may be unsure how to participate in discussions like this without looking like an ass, may I suggest: Quora's discussion on "What things are most useful for men to keep in mind when discussing theories or topics relating to gender?" http://www.quora.com/What-things-are-most-useful-for-men-to-keep-in-mind-when-discussing-theories-or-topics-relating-to-gender http://www.quora.com/What-things-are-most-useful-for-men-to-... Ellen Spertus's classic "Why are There so Few Female Computer Scientists?": http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/pap.html The handy "Male Programmer Privilege Checklist": http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Male_Programmer_Privilege_Checklist http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Male_Programmer_Privilege... "HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux": http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO.html http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-H... And that useful reference "Derailing for Dummies": http://derailingfordummies.com/ http://derailingfordummies.com/
- wpietri 15y agoNot getting the downvotes here. Anybody care to explain? I expected to have some of my more polemical contributions ride the vote rollercoaster. But as somebody who often wasn't sure how to usefully participate and who made a variety of mistakes in the past, I meant this to be helpful. EDIT: Previously it was down to -3. Now it's back in the black.
- tessr 15y agowell I upvoted you... I'm beginning to think that HN is getting sick and tired of having to think about women in tech. What a burden!
- jdp23 15y agoNothing new here -- many people on HN routinely downvote comments like the above. It's almost like they don't want to acknowledge the issue or take responsibility for changing their behavior or something ...
- pilgrim689 15y agoBrogramming and being sexist are two completely different things. My girlfriend is also in the field of software engineering. Often times, we program together. However, on rare occasions I'll get together with my male friends one evening and indulge on Pizza Pockets and Python. We call it "brogramming" as self-mockery. I'm not being sexist; I'm hanging out with my buddies, and she completely understands that. I don't like watching football with my male friends, so we code together instead. As long as we keep brogramming outside of work, it should not be thrown in the same basket as sexism... and it's ridiculous to propose that we abolish men wanting to sometimes code with men outside of work.
- robee 15y agoThis is how I interpret it too. It's self-deprecating and ironic. It is a complex reference though, so its not surprising that some people misinterpret it.
- AlexeyMK 15y agoI used to agree with you, and then I realized that when it comes to offense, there's no such thing as a misinterpretation. If somebody's offended by something, that's not your call to make. Certainly this can be reduced to absurdity (I'm offended you would make this argument about offensiveness!) but I don't think Tess & co are trying to be facetious here. FWIW, I think brogramming is self-deprecating and ironic too, and not the least bit offensive. But Tess doesn't - and I respect that. EDIT: You're not obligated to stop doing something simply because somebody thinks it's offensive. But it's kind of the polite thing to do.
- tessr 15y agoSo I don't actually find brogramming particularly offensive. A little exclusive? Yeah. Inappropriate as a recruiting tool? Definitely. But there are a large number of women who DO feel that it's offensive. And I cede to them. (Which is what Alexey's getting at.)
- hackinthebochs 15y ago
- TylerBrock 15y agoPlease don't vote this up. People who believe this is a problem are idiots and only adding to the hysteria. Why can't people be programmers and sociable/fun at the same time? Not everyone is wearing polo shirts and popped collars people.
- stale2000 15y agoIs the stereotype of the frat boy, or tradition "bro" offensive? Not as it applies to technology or brogramming, but just as it exists by itself, or as it relates to Greek culture. Does it discourage women from joining Greek organizations, and is therefore discriminatory or offensive? IMO, it doesn't discourage women from joining Greek organizations, as there is a corresponding Sorority girl stereotype and culture that is completely different from the frat bro stereotype. To bring this back to the topic, I believe that the brogramming stereotype may only be off-putting to women as there doesn't currently exist a corresponding "programmer girl" stereotype that is completely different from the male-focused ones and is also a stereotype that women might aspire to be like. As such, I don't think telling people to get rid of there new meme, because its off-putting to women, is going to be very effective (I mean, just look at how long people have been trying to get rid of the nerdy CS major stereotype), but starting your own "coding girl" stereotype just might. Bryan
- tessr 15y agoThat's a good idea. Will look into it, see if I can start something spontaneously... (; But no--I really wish there were, and I think there will be plenty eventually. In the meantime? I think it's worth writing down the ways that college students, male and female, feel about these issues.
- wpietri 15y agoSo in brief, your theory is that the best way to reduce sexism is to accentuate gender stereotypes?
- stale2000 15y agoStereotype was probably a bad choice of words on my part as it has inherently negative connotations. What I'm saying is that there doesn't currently exist a Computer Science "image", or idea of what it is like to be a Computer Scientist, that is friendly to women. I'm just using the logic behind how it would be ridiculous to say that the frat boy image is putting women off from joining Greek organizations (beyond having to interact with them), as most women who are thinking about joining a sorority probably aren't worrying particularly much about becoming a frat boy.
- xenophanes 15y agoAll this talk about "Don't do X, it's sexist" or "Don't do Y if it's for Men not People" has a negative focus: what not to do. And then punishing offenders instead of helping them learn better. People don't learn by punishment. (See: Karl Popper.) At best, this gets people to hide overt problems. It sweeps problems under the rug without getting rid of them. People will still think sexist thoughts, then add self-censorship on top of that. Real solutions will come from discussion of better ways of life and thinking: what to do instead. And how to characterize this by what it's about rather than a list of things excluded. Life needs a whitelist more than a blacklist.
- tessr 15y agoI think there's something to be said for faking it until you make it, in this case. IF men in tech learn to "hide" their sexist thoughts, this will help women in tech feel more comfortable and will thus encourage more of them. And then they will show men how competent women can be in CS, sexist stereotypes disappear because they aren't true at all anymore, etc. etc. I know this is an optimistic oversimplification, but you get the idea.
- xenophanes 15y agoI don't think that works. We've had a lot of (unintentional) "fake it until you make it" with anti-semitism at various times in various countries, but it has never solved the problem. (Example: France during/after the French Revolution.) PS I don't agree but I don't think you should be downvoted.
- tessr 15y agoI guess I don't understand, then, how society shifts. Some people who are racist/sexist/whateverist come around, but more often it seems to me that younger people grow up in a world with different paradigms. There has to be a huge number of people "faking" tolerance. I could be completely wrong on this, however. This isn't something I've spent a ton of time thinking about. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that Be Nice To People is considered a basic law of humanity.
- temphn 15y agoLet's start with some facts. FACT: Men and women have significant, measurable neurological differences[1]. FACT: These differences are measurable before birth[2]. FACT: Men and women show large, reproducible differences on average in tests of visuospatial ability, differences that can be mapped back to the brain[3] Men consistently outperform women on spatial tasks, including mental rotation, which is the ability to identify how a 3-D object would appear if rotated in space. Now, a University of Iowa study shows a connection between this sex-linked ability and the structure of the parietal lobe, the brain region that controls this type of skill. The parietal lobe was already known to differ between men and women, with women's parietal lobes having proportionally thicker cortexes or "grey matter." But this difference was never linked back to actual performance differences on the mental rotation test. ... "Differences in parietal lobe activation have been seen in other studies. This study represents the first time we have related specific structural differences in the parietal lobe to sex-linked performances on a mental rotation test," said Tim Koscik, the study's lead author and a graduate student in the University of Iowa Neuroscience Graduate Program. "It's important to note that it isn't that women cannot do the mental rotation tasks, but they appear to do them slower, and neither men nor women perform the tasks perfectly." There are literally thousands more studies of the deep rooted genetic, neurological, and endocrinological differences between the genders on pubmed.org. These differences manifest before birth. And this research is what your tax dollars pay for. It is just young earth creationism to postulate that evolution did not happen, or that biological gender differences do not exist or are somehow disconnected from their real world consequences. One of the consequences is that in any niche which requires cognitive or physical activity, we should not expect an exactly 50/50 distribution of males and females. Interests differ. Abilities differ. The religious outcry against stating these basic evolutionary facts got Larry Summers ousted as the President of Harvard in 2005. You simply cannot state these facts and retain your job. And the irony of all ironies is that those who drove the President of Harvard from power will insist that they are actually the oppressed, rather than the powerful. That's the root of the matter here. The ostensible evil of the term "brogrammer" rests upon the tacit desirability of having a 50/50 distribution of women in programming, which in turn rests upon the presumption that it is even possible to achieve this equality given biological constraints, constraints that are obvious upon a cursory skim of the relevant literature. We are just not blank slates to be blasted clean and remade by ideology. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Brizendine-M-D/dp/0767920090 http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Brizendine-M-D/dp/... [2] http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-10/uu-spb102309.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-10/uu-spb102309.... [3] http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/uoi-sdo121708.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/uoi-sdo121708...
- fourk 15y agoI feel like I'm missing something here. Why would someone (of any gender) feel like they're missing out due to an inability to fit a stereotype melding douchebag frat boy with programmer? It's sad to me, because there are so many much more worthy things for us to aspire towards, as software developers, than some stereotype based around degenerate behavior.
- dantle 15y agoI actually wonder if the brogrammer faces more discrimination than the female programmer. Who would want to hire a loud drunk frat boy to program for their Fortune 500 company?
- tessr 15y agoSee, this is the thing. Startups are now using "brogramming" as a recruiting buzzword (including one I interviewed with--though I dropped out partway through the process because I accepted an offer elsewhere).
- agateform 15y agoI searched for brogrammer with Indeed, simplyhired, startuply and craigslist and haven't found a single job opening. The "brogrammer" buzzword does not seem to be a trend.
- wavephorm 15y agoI coudn't even finish the article, it just sounded like a bunch of whiny nagging.
- edwinnathaniel 15y agoAs a group of Computer Scientists, Software Engineers, Developers, we seem to try hard to be "accepted" by the public. Why is that? Ever since a very long time ago, we want to be acknowledged and to be put in pedestal. Be it the word "prodigy", "young hacker", "talented nerd", "millionaire boy" or something along that line....
- dinkumthinkum 15y agoIt just makes me think of non-technical programmers that recently started programming after watching a few screencasts of "pick your 'hip' web framework" and now consider themselves to be uber-hackers or something.
- nhashem 15y agoI find the "brogramming" thing fascinating because I've never actually met anyone that has called themselves "brogrammer" non-ironically or non-satirically. My best friend's cousin is from Long Island and he has cousins that call themselves "guidos" and intentionally live up to every Jersey Shore stereotype because they legitimately think it's cool. My experience is only anecdotal, but I've yet to meet anyone who has actually used "brogramming" as a serious label for themselves. My own personal theory is that there are two collective phenomenon at play here: 1) There's a self-cyclical force here where some people think brogramming is a label some people use non-ironically, so there are things like marketing materials developed specifically for it, which by definition will be exclusionary and sexist. This material further spreads the idea that "brogrammers are real" and everyone gradually forgets that nobody is actually this ridiculous. 2) There is a fear among programmers that our wonderful merit-based community accepting of all genders, cultures, and creeds -- which it is, really -- is going to turn into Phi Delta Toolbag overnight. For a lot of us, myself included, we've never been one of the "cool kids" and found computers and technology a much better fit for our introverted personalities. And suddenly these pink popped-collared polo shirt sunglass-wearing monsters are going to take that away from us. Anyway, I understand why the women at UPenn would be offended by the "brogrammer" term, sometimes you just don't want to be associated with a term even if it's satirical. But are there actual brogrammers out there being sexist, or is this an overblown issue?
- tessr 15y agoLOL @ Phi Delta Toolbag. So, here's the thing. I touched on this (but now I'm wishing I'd emphasized it more). Brogramming is moving away from satire. There are actually people who want to be brogrammers, just like there are actually people who want to be guidos. Now, almost everyone I know is proud to NOT be a brogrammer (I think some people slyly enjoy the label, but that's another issue). I would also challenge your idea that our community is accepting of everyone. I think we are in theory--certainly, we all want to be--but there's little things that happen. IMO, the stuff that's been surfacing this week has always been here. It's just people are getting called out on it now. And, btw, thanks for such a thoughtful comment.
- 15y ago
- arjunnarayan 15y ago> As I see it, women are put off by “brogrammer” for two reasons. Some women would say that dichotomy of “programmer” and “frat bro” leaves women out altogether. If you’re not a nerdy boy or a brogrammer, where do you fit in? Others see the brogrammer meme as taking the most “masculine” aspects of the discipline and emphasizing them (think chugging Red Bull, pumping iron, eating steak and “getting” women). Is this really what we should be doing when women are already so underrepresented? I think the author is misreading the entire "movement" by first assuming the false dichotomy she stated, that I've quoted above: that computer science is for the two exclusive groups of "nerdy boys" and "brogrammers". First, the entire meme is mostly satire making fun of bros. Because, hey, easy targets, right? Second, whatever serious brogrammers there are isn't out of nerdy guys coming out of the woodwork and embracing a culture of bro-ing. I know and socialize with a fair number of self-proclaimed "bros". Whatever non-satire based brogrammers exist, they come from a realization on the part of the bros-who-formerly-did-not-program --- that programming is a useful skill. So a lot of bros who previously took Econ classes and lined up for the investment banking recruiting sessions are now learning how to program and spending more time in the CS department. I don't think this is something to be "offended" by. If what you're offended by is bro-culture (and yes, I will be the first to say that there are sometimes troubling things about a frat-culture that sometimes objectifies women --- the "brogramming" session cited where recruiters were trumpeting the existence of naked women at parties _is_ offensive.), then decry those bros that _do_ do things that marginalize various groups. But there are plenty of bros who do nothing worse than consume copious amounts of alcohol on friday night, play games of beerpong late into the night, wear popped collars, get excessive tans and lift a lot of weights (which is how I've met most of my bro friends, seeing as I do find some of those activities pleasurable). It's not all Mike-The-Situation out here, and you can empirically verify this fact by walking down Walnut Street on a Friday Night as the frat parties are in session. But as a computer scientist who has all too often seen too many groups excluded from this beautiful subject --- I'm mostly troubled by this blogpost --- as it is an attempt to marginalize a group of different people (bros) who seem to have taken to learning more computer science. I want more bros in computer science. more women, more goths, more emos, more whatever-stereotype you have in mind. And if they want to brogram, let them.
- tessr 15y ago
- petercooper 15y agoIt is interesting watching this discussion play out. I've been wondering whether people are put off becoming musicians/writers/artists due to others having sexist stereotypes in their material. We don't seem to see the same widespread demands for apologies and desistance in those fields (consider the amount of songs talking about "bi^ches" and the like) - or do we? But then I realized that we have seen racism (and homophobia) become taboo in pop culture and the arts, thankfully, yet sexism is still a free for all. Why? As idiotic as "brogramming" is (IMHO) and as much as I think software development should be a semi-academic, tight-knit discipline with progressive and respectful norms, many of these things causing offense seem to be misjudged attempts at injecting pop culture. "Brogramming" is on par with the group "LMFAO" in terms of stupidity and tact, yet LMFAO are not called upon to apologize or up their game to stop offending people. Why? (Differing standards for pop culture celebrities vs professionals, maybe? But are some developers also pop culture celebrities? Tricky.) Bear in mind this is just armchair sociological analysis, and no opinion of mine can be derived from these questions (well, other than that brogramming is a bit silly and that I think we should all treat each other with the respect we'd also want to receive) :-)
- gt384u 15y agoNever did I expect to have this discussion about "brogramming" as a legitimate phenomenon. My knee-jerk reaction is to lament that this is a misunderstanding of language/culture and that is why we can't have nice things, but that's just simple of me to think so. Clearly the cultural angle of this is much more interesting if a large group of reasonable, intelligent people in the software community at large can arrive at such a broken state of affairs. I took it for granted that the portmanteau of "bro" (never a positive adjective in my corner of the world, e.g. "Ugh, the bar upstairs was full of bros, so we left") and "programmer" was something that was obviously poking fun at (among other things) the social life of the archetypical awkward, introverted programmer. With the above in mind, I truly adored the satire of brogrammer when I first came upon it. I would have never thought of it being exclusive towards women because, frankly, all of the women in computer science I've ever worked with have been not only good computer scientists, but also properly well-rounded individuals able to comport themselves with other human beings without being painful to be around who never ever EVER desire being a Brogrammer and would be offended to be called as much. I kind of laughed brogramming off early on in the genesis of the phenomenon when I saw people behaving like they were taking it seriously. My thought was they were using an ultra-mock seriousness in the furtherance of humor. Think of your favorite comedian looking you square in the eye and telling you that, say, they think babies are delicious for breakfast on toast. The discourse on brogramming sort of percolated over time, then I distictly recall that I saw a post from someone in (Malaysia, maybe?) here on HN where they were referring to themselves as a Brogrammer on their website's bio, and I took it to be either someone who had the misfortune to lose something in translation, or that I misunderstood that they too were in on the joke, as it were. I know when I try to understand humor in French or Spanish I lose a great deal of the nuance and have to resort to fairly broad humor when I communicate in those languages. As a consequence, I tend to avoid trying to be funny in anything other than English. It's for the best. Then I saw articles popping up in the media about Brogramming as cultural phenomenon and I took it to be the standard sort of journalistic fare where a cultural phenomenon that gets reported on is either wildly misrepresented or turns out to be patently false. Anyone remember "toothing" [1] from early-mid 2000's? Just think how much serious play that got in the news. So much so, that I'd be shocked if there weren't a substantial number of people who tried it out of curiosity. And now I'm discovering that Brogramming isn't a self-deprecating joke that I've been sharing with nearly as many people as I thought. I'm not sure if this would really happen, but I'd be eager to hear from journalists who reported it as phenomenon, startups and recruiters who chose to use it as recruiting pitch, or someone who internalized Brogramming as aspirational lifestyle. I'm just confused. At any rate, I give up. No joke is worth the shitty feelings and exclusion and hurt and animosity that I'm seeing being identified now as coming out of brogramming as meme. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothing
- useflyer 15y agoAs a once upon a time finance guy who made the transition to web designer / founder, I have the following observation: Wall street was the hot go-to destination, and it was as 'bro' as it got. The never-ending conversation was "can women fit in on Wall street?" Now SV is the hot go-to destination, and its getting 'bro'. The new conversation is "can women fit on in SV?"
- redthrowaway 15y ago>Why is “brogrammer” offensive, anyways? Because it denotes retards trying to pass themselves off as qualified. Just as "humbers" would denote unqualified plumbers trying to ply their trade, or "barpenters" would denote something similar. "Brogrammers" isn't offensive because it's sexist; it's offensive because it's idiotic.