4 ms·

Linux on the Arm-Based ThinkPad X13S: Getting There

64 points by rcarmo 3y ago

codewiz 3y ago
This is a 2022 laptop with a Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3, which doesn't compare too well with contemporary Intel and Apple processors for lightweight laptops: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs5317vs4104/Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3-vs-Intel-i7-1355U-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs5317vs4104/Snapdr... So not very exciting, unless Qualcomm and Lenovo are planning to release refreshed hardware soon.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >So not very exciting, unless Qualcomm and Lenovo are planning to release refreshed hardware soon. Chicken and egg problem. Qualcomm won't invest massive resources to make a world beating laptop chip if there's no userbase for it.
  - speed_spread 3y ago
    The interest for Asahi Linux should prove that there is a sizeable market for Linux on ARM. Admittedly the Asahi team are out of this world, but ARM is well understood and having a small Linux team of "ordinarily good" developers would be a drop in the bucket for Qualcomm. I think there should be clear incentive there for a CPU manufacturer to establish itself as the reference ARM PC platform provider like Intel is on the x86 side.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >The interest for Asahi Linux should prove that there is a sizeable market for Linux on ARM Interest for Asahi only proves there's interest for Linux on Apple devices, because they're already so popular and numerous, bought by millions of users first and foremost to run MacOS, not Linux. There's zero interest for non-Apple ARM laptops because, unlike Macbooks, they have no market share. Nobody's gonna spend hundreds of hours reverse engineering GPU drivers for an ARM laptop that only 20 people on the planet bought, and in half of those cases it's sitting gathering dust. Like I said, chicken and egg problem. There's not gonna be a massive upsell of ARM laptops if the equivalent SW ecosystem of Apple isn't there to move the HW off the shelves.
      - kramerger 3y ago
        Nitpick: there are 2-3B Linux devices out there are 64bit ARM. Not many are laptops thought
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >Nitpick: there are 2-3B Linux devices out there are 64bit ARM. The context of this thread was about ARM laptop devices, not generic ARM widgets. Please use the strongest interpretation of an argument when responding, not the weaker one for the sake of nitpicks, as per HN rules: >Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
        kramerger 3y ago
        Is it really that far fetched?? The software stack is 90% identical and we are seeing smartphones & tables getting closer to laptops both in terms of functionality and form factor See for example Samsung Dex, "pro" and foldable tablets, chromebook Linux and android subsystem, ...
        rbanffy 3y ago
        Android uses the Linux kernel, but, above that, there is very little in common with a Linux laptop or workstation.
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        > it's sitting gathering dust. If it survived an impact with the wall
      - speed_spread 3y ago
        I still contend that a significant portion of the interest for Asahi converts to a desire for a good ARM linux laptop, Apple branded or not.
        3y ago
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    > Qualcomm won't invest massive resources to make a world beating laptop There is a tablet market waiting for such chip. Apple is making a killing with their iPads. I am sure other tablet makers would like a slice of that sweet apple pie.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Apple is making a killing with their iPads. You're missing the point. The fact that Android and Windows ARM tablets aren't "making a killing" and not selling even remotely as good as iPads dealing with an abysmal market share, is not because they don't have M1 chips, but it's their shit SW ecosystem that's been a clusterfuck from day one, angering consumers who expected more than just stretched phone apps and 2 years of SW updates, and the indifference and lack of commitment Google has shown to Android tablet ecosystem over the years. iPads were outselling every other tablets even before they got the M1 chips. In this tablet space it's the available SW ecosystem that sells the HW, not the other way aground. Android tablets could get fictional M3 chips from the future and they still wouldn't outsell iPads because both developers and consumers already got burned by the Android/non-Apple tablet SW experience and decided to stick with Apple.
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        > The fact that Android and Windows ARM tablets aren't "making a killing" and not selling even remotely as good as iPads The whole stack is objectively worse - slower, with inferior software. They are cheaper though, but it doesn't help much when everyone competes in price for what is, essentially, variations of the same product. There is a good reason why there aren't many Windows ARM tablets and laptops - they perform worse than the low-end Intel stuff. The tooling to make software for them is not great, and the channels through which one distributes the software is also a limitation. In laptops, Windows on ARM needs to compete against Windows on x86 and, unless Qualcomm and Microsoft pull a miracle, those machines will remain uncompetitive. And yes: apple made a killing from day one. They always had an excellent software stack and a thriving high-quality, ruthlessly curated app ecosystem, something not even Microsoft can't offer with their own products (Hi, Teams team. I'd like to discuss a couple things).
- imglorp 3y ago
  Fast enough for most ultrabook users. Being fastest this year is really not a big deal. If you're doing heavy media, gaming, or compiling you'll be on a different form factor.
  - izacus 3y ago
    Yeah, but there's no reason for it - if you've ever used an ARM laptop system you'll see that you're just trading usable performance (they tend to be very laggy) for not much benefit. Modern AMD/Intel mobile Ultrabook chips aren't that much more power hungry.
    - kramerger 3y ago
      I think it has been shown that whith ligt usage, the main power sink is the rest of the laptop (ports, display, sensors,... ) This is why Linux laptop experience improved significantly a few years back when they started disabling unused HDMI ports etc
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      > if you've ever used an ARM laptop system Erm... A non-Apple ARM laptop you mean. But yes - these things feel like Celeron laptops for Xeon prices.
      - izacus 3y ago
        No, I wrote what I meant. I own both an M2 Mac, ARM Chromebook and Zen4 AMD laptop and the MacBook and AMD laptop are quite comparable these days, it's not like I run out of battery on any of them regularly. The Qualcomm powered Chromebook is the outlier with noticeably worse performance.
        rbanffy 3y ago
        > it's not like I run out of battery on any of them regularly. It all depends on how and where your power adapters are scattered in your office. I definitely like not worrying about that with the Apples while, with the Dell, I'm constantly mindful about where the adaptor is (and carry one in my backpack).
- wyldfire 3y ago
  The reports say 8cx gen 4 is due out in 2024 and IIRC that's the new Nuvia-designed CPU which should ideally be more competitive than the reference designs from ARM.
- _chu1 3y ago
  I'm sure this didn't sell well in the terms of Lenovo's usual customers who need x86 processors.
- jhoho 3y ago
  With 7 Watts, the Snapdragon has less than half the Intel's and Apple's TDP, though. Also, the i7-1355U only became available in 2023. The confirmed upgrades to 8 performance cores (from 4), ARMv9, PCIe 4, DDR5 RAM and possibly a higher TDP will bring significant performance gains with Gen 4. But in principle I agree to you, I wouldn't use it yet. Edit: Also, why leave AMD out :) https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs4104vs4794vs4102/Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz-vs-Intel-i7-1255U-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5800U https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs4104vs4794vs4102/...
ireallywantthat 3y ago
Qualcomm? No Thanks. (It's the company which knows nothing but planned obsolescence)
speed_spread 3y ago
Surprising to see this taking so long to evolve. One would think that Qualcomm would benefit from dedicating a few heads to proper Linux support of the Snapdragon, or offer bounties for community development of features. Asahi is doing much better with Apple hardware even though it is comparatively much more exotic and closed up than PC architecture. I wonder how much Microsoft / Windows 11 ties are interfering (on purpose or accidentally) with the progress of native ARM PC Linux.
- izacus 3y ago
  If you take a moment to research you'll see that Qualcomm absolutely does not give two craps about software support for their SoC/SoMs. Like, none. They throw out a binary turd and that's that. Androids history of (lacking) updates is littered with them refusing to do anything but release a binary blob that works on a few kernels. There's no need to make up some wild conspiracy theories with Windows here, spend a single Google search before going into this direction next time.
  - speed_spread 3y ago
    Or maybe, I'm just creating opportunities so you can come and shit on Qualcomm like they deserve. I think it's funnier than if we're both taking that dump at the same time.
  - dmytroi 3y ago
    AFAIK Android updates are not as fast as they could be due to need for mobile operators to re-certify every update as the OS blob contains modem firmware. Apple is able to update iOS faster because modem firmware is separate from the rest of iOS. Hence having open source drivers in the kernel will not improve the situation much.
    - izacus 3y ago
      That is completely tangential from Qualcomms SoM/SoC support cycle.
  - 3y ago
rjsw 3y ago
The reviewed machine has more RAM than a Pinebook Pro but the user experience doesn't sound to be nearly as good. I recently went on a work trip with my Pinebook Pro as my only computer, everything worked fine.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  It is really an extraordinarily nice machine for an uncanny price point. I wonder if they plan on making a motherboard replacement with a connector compatible with a Pi CM4 (so I could plug their fine Pine64 SOQuartz, or the Banana Pi CM if I need more CPU, or an 8GB CM4 for the extra memory).
  - rjsw 3y ago
    I think a better upgrade would be a 16GB RK3588 board in the same case.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      Looks sweet. The closest to that idea is the Clockwork DevTerm, which has a CM4-compatible carrier. I’d appreciate, however, a bigger screen.
rbanffy 3y ago
Who wouldn't want a laptop that's more expensive, heavier, and slower than a similarly configured Macbook?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
aktuel 3y ago
I just wish they would drop those hardware mouse buttons and the nipple.
- IE6 3y ago
  To each their own, but I do not. Lenovo remains my "goto" if I have to buy a laptop (though Framework has more or less replaced them) and the main reason for that was the Trackpoint and mouse buttons.
- thewataccount 3y ago
  Is there a specific reason why? Do they get in your way when using it? For me and I think a lot of others that's one of their main features over the competition.
- asddubs 3y ago
  i love the hardware mouse buttons, especially left and middle click. makes it much easier to drag and drop + middle click is just nice for opening tabs
StillBored 3y ago
"The X13S is not yet ready for prime time with any FOSS OS" Not a glowing review. This seems to describe every arm device that isn't a server, or a Raspberry Pi. The mac is in the same situation. It works with a long list of exceptions, given an Asahi image, and pretty much not at all otherwise. These community projects are great, but by the time Linux gets full support the HW is usually obsolete, replaced with a newer version, or no longer for sale, and there remains a laundry list of won't fix bugs because the hackers have moved on to the next shiny. I don't understand why this has been going on for > 10 years and arm hasn't bothered to step in and mandate some HW or firmware guidelines like they did in the server space. All these half baked and abandoned devices can't be good for their brand, and its pretty obvious Qualcomm is happy with the current model of milking a string of failures.

64 points by rcarmo 3y ago

This is a 2022 laptop with a Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3, which doesn't compare too well with contemporary Intel and Apple processors for lightweight laptops: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs5317vs4104/Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3-vs-Intel-i7-1355U-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs5317vs4104/Snapdr... So not very exciting, unless Qualcomm and Lenovo are planning to release refreshed hardware soon.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>So not very exciting, unless Qualcomm and Lenovo are planning to release refreshed hardware soon. Chicken and egg problem. Qualcomm won't invest massive resources to make a world beating laptop chip if there's no userbase for it.
- speed_spread 3y ago
  The interest for Asahi Linux should prove that there is a sizeable market for Linux on ARM. Admittedly the Asahi team are out of this world, but ARM is well understood and having a small Linux team of "ordinarily good" developers would be a drop in the bucket for Qualcomm. I think there should be clear incentive there for a CPU manufacturer to establish itself as the reference ARM PC platform provider like Intel is on the x86 side.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >The interest for Asahi Linux should prove that there is a sizeable market for Linux on ARM Interest for Asahi only proves there's interest for Linux on Apple devices, because they're already so popular and numerous, bought by millions of users first and foremost to run MacOS, not Linux. There's zero interest for non-Apple ARM laptops because, unlike Macbooks, they have no market share. Nobody's gonna spend hundreds of hours reverse engineering GPU drivers for an ARM laptop that only 20 people on the planet bought, and in half of those cases it's sitting gathering dust. Like I said, chicken and egg problem. There's not gonna be a massive upsell of ARM laptops if the equivalent SW ecosystem of Apple isn't there to move the HW off the shelves.
    - kramerger 3y ago
      Nitpick: there are 2-3B Linux devices out there are 64bit ARM. Not many are laptops thought
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >Nitpick: there are 2-3B Linux devices out there are 64bit ARM. The context of this thread was about ARM laptop devices, not generic ARM widgets. Please use the strongest interpretation of an argument when responding, not the weaker one for the sake of nitpicks, as per HN rules: >Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
        kramerger 3y ago
        Is it really that far fetched?? The software stack is 90% identical and we are seeing smartphones & tables getting closer to laptops both in terms of functionality and form factor See for example Samsung Dex, "pro" and foldable tablets, chromebook Linux and android subsystem, ...
        rbanffy 3y ago
        Android uses the Linux kernel, but, above that, there is very little in common with a Linux laptop or workstation.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      > it's sitting gathering dust. If it survived an impact with the wall
    - speed_spread 3y ago
      I still contend that a significant portion of the interest for Asahi converts to a desire for a good ARM linux laptop, Apple branded or not.
      - 3y ago
- rbanffy 3y ago
  > Qualcomm won't invest massive resources to make a world beating laptop There is a tablet market waiting for such chip. Apple is making a killing with their iPads. I am sure other tablet makers would like a slice of that sweet apple pie.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Apple is making a killing with their iPads. You're missing the point. The fact that Android and Windows ARM tablets aren't "making a killing" and not selling even remotely as good as iPads dealing with an abysmal market share, is not because they don't have M1 chips, but it's their shit SW ecosystem that's been a clusterfuck from day one, angering consumers who expected more than just stretched phone apps and 2 years of SW updates, and the indifference and lack of commitment Google has shown to Android tablet ecosystem over the years. iPads were outselling every other tablets even before they got the M1 chips. In this tablet space it's the available SW ecosystem that sells the HW, not the other way aground. Android tablets could get fictional M3 chips from the future and they still wouldn't outsell iPads because both developers and consumers already got burned by the Android/non-Apple tablet SW experience and decided to stick with Apple.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      > The fact that Android and Windows ARM tablets aren't "making a killing" and not selling even remotely as good as iPads The whole stack is objectively worse - slower, with inferior software. They are cheaper though, but it doesn't help much when everyone competes in price for what is, essentially, variations of the same product. There is a good reason why there aren't many Windows ARM tablets and laptops - they perform worse than the low-end Intel stuff. The tooling to make software for them is not great, and the channels through which one distributes the software is also a limitation. In laptops, Windows on ARM needs to compete against Windows on x86 and, unless Qualcomm and Microsoft pull a miracle, those machines will remain uncompetitive. And yes: apple made a killing from day one. They always had an excellent software stack and a thriving high-quality, ruthlessly curated app ecosystem, something not even Microsoft can't offer with their own products (Hi, Teams team. I'd like to discuss a couple things).
imglorp 3y ago
Fast enough for most ultrabook users. Being fastest this year is really not a big deal. If you're doing heavy media, gaming, or compiling you'll be on a different form factor.
- izacus 3y ago
  Yeah, but there's no reason for it - if you've ever used an ARM laptop system you'll see that you're just trading usable performance (they tend to be very laggy) for not much benefit. Modern AMD/Intel mobile Ultrabook chips aren't that much more power hungry.
  - kramerger 3y ago
    I think it has been shown that whith ligt usage, the main power sink is the rest of the laptop (ports, display, sensors,... ) This is why Linux laptop experience improved significantly a few years back when they started disabling unused HDMI ports etc
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    > if you've ever used an ARM laptop system Erm... A non-Apple ARM laptop you mean. But yes - these things feel like Celeron laptops for Xeon prices.
    - izacus 3y ago
      No, I wrote what I meant. I own both an M2 Mac, ARM Chromebook and Zen4 AMD laptop and the MacBook and AMD laptop are quite comparable these days, it's not like I run out of battery on any of them regularly. The Qualcomm powered Chromebook is the outlier with noticeably worse performance.
      - rbanffy 3y ago
        > it's not like I run out of battery on any of them regularly. It all depends on how and where your power adapters are scattered in your office. I definitely like not worrying about that with the Apples while, with the Dell, I'm constantly mindful about where the adaptor is (and carry one in my backpack).
wyldfire 3y ago
The reports say 8cx gen 4 is due out in 2024 and IIRC that's the new Nuvia-designed CPU which should ideally be more competitive than the reference designs from ARM.
_chu1 3y ago
I'm sure this didn't sell well in the terms of Lenovo's usual customers who need x86 processors.
jhoho 3y ago
With 7 Watts, the Snapdragon has less than half the Intel's and Apple's TDP, though. Also, the i7-1355U only became available in 2023. The confirmed upgrades to 8 performance cores (from 4), ARMv9, PCIe 4, DDR5 RAM and possibly a higher TDP will bring significant performance gains with Gen 4. But in principle I agree to you, I wouldn't use it yet. Edit: Also, why leave AMD out :) https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs4104vs4794vs4102/Snapdragon-8cx-Gen-3-vs-Apple-M1-8-Core-3200-MHz-vs-Intel-i7-1255U-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-5800U https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4774vs4104vs4794vs4102/...

ireallywantthat 3y ago

Qualcomm? No Thanks. (It's the company which knows nothing but planned obsolescence)

speed_spread 3y ago

Surprising to see this taking so long to evolve. One would think that Qualcomm would benefit from dedicating a few heads to proper Linux support of the Snapdragon, or offer bounties for community development of features. Asahi is doing much better with Apple hardware even though it is comparatively much more exotic and closed up than PC architecture. I wonder how much Microsoft / Windows 11 ties are interfering (on purpose or accidentally) with the progress of native ARM PC Linux.

izacus 3y ago
If you take a moment to research you'll see that Qualcomm absolutely does not give two craps about software support for their SoC/SoMs. Like, none. They throw out a binary turd and that's that. Androids history of (lacking) updates is littered with them refusing to do anything but release a binary blob that works on a few kernels. There's no need to make up some wild conspiracy theories with Windows here, spend a single Google search before going into this direction next time.
- speed_spread 3y ago
  Or maybe, I'm just creating opportunities so you can come and shit on Qualcomm like they deserve. I think it's funnier than if we're both taking that dump at the same time.
- dmytroi 3y ago
  AFAIK Android updates are not as fast as they could be due to need for mobile operators to re-certify every update as the OS blob contains modem firmware. Apple is able to update iOS faster because modem firmware is separate from the rest of iOS. Hence having open source drivers in the kernel will not improve the situation much.
  - izacus 3y ago
    That is completely tangential from Qualcomms SoM/SoC support cycle.
- 3y ago

rjsw 3y ago

The reviewed machine has more RAM than a Pinebook Pro but the user experience doesn't sound to be nearly as good. I recently went on a work trip with my Pinebook Pro as my only computer, everything worked fine.

rbanffy 3y ago
It is really an extraordinarily nice machine for an uncanny price point. I wonder if they plan on making a motherboard replacement with a connector compatible with a Pi CM4 (so I could plug their fine Pine64 SOQuartz, or the Banana Pi CM if I need more CPU, or an 8GB CM4 for the extra memory).
- rjsw 3y ago
  I think a better upgrade would be a 16GB RK3588 board in the same case.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    Looks sweet. The closest to that idea is the Clockwork DevTerm, which has a CM4-compatible carrier. I’d appreciate, however, a bigger screen.

rbanffy 3y ago

Who wouldn't want a laptop that's more expensive, heavier, and slower than a similarly configured Macbook?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

aktuel 3y ago

I just wish they would drop those hardware mouse buttons and the nipple.

IE6 3y ago
To each their own, but I do not. Lenovo remains my "goto" if I have to buy a laptop (though Framework has more or less replaced them) and the main reason for that was the Trackpoint and mouse buttons.
thewataccount 3y ago
Is there a specific reason why? Do they get in your way when using it? For me and I think a lot of others that's one of their main features over the competition.
asddubs 3y ago
i love the hardware mouse buttons, especially left and middle click. makes it much easier to drag and drop + middle click is just nice for opening tabs

StillBored 3y ago

"The X13S is not yet ready for prime time with any FOSS OS" Not a glowing review. This seems to describe every arm device that isn't a server, or a Raspberry Pi. The mac is in the same situation. It works with a long list of exceptions, given an Asahi image, and pretty much not at all otherwise. These community projects are great, but by the time Linux gets full support the HW is usually obsolete, replaced with a newer version, or no longer for sale, and there remains a laundry list of won't fix bugs because the hackers have moved on to the next shiny. I don't understand why this has been going on for > 10 years and arm hasn't bothered to step in and mandate some HW or firmware guidelines like they did in the server space. All these half baked and abandoned devices can't be good for their brand, and its pretty obvious Qualcomm is happy with the current model of milking a string of failures.