5 ms·

Speaking of it's rate of fire, at one point the ATF declared that a shoestring was a machinegun because it could be used to make an M1 rifle fire in an automati

Speaking of it's rate of fire, at one point the ATF declared that a shoestring was a machinegun because it could be used to make an M1 rifle fire in an automatic fashion[1]. A decade or so later, they backpedaled a bit and said that shoestrings are only machineguns when they're attached to M1 rifles in a way that causes them to fire multiple times with a single trigger pull [1]: https://i.imgur.com/269aaSq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/269aaSq.jpg

queuebert 3y ago
"How to Build a Machine Gun on a Shoestring Budget"
rideontime 3y ago
That seems reasonable.
panarky 3y ago
According to the literal text of the statute quoted there, the definition of "machinegun" hinges on a "single function of the trigger". If the shoestring achieves rapid fire by causing multiple functions of the trigger, how is it a machinegun by that definition? Also, for anyone like me who expected that jpg would be a photo of the shoestring instead of text on paper, here's what it looks like. https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg
- aardvarkr 3y ago
  Here’s the shoestring-modified M1 in operation. That’s pretty clearly a fully automatic weapon. https://ifunny.co/video/shoestring-machine-gun-in-september-2004-the-atf-decided-that-mKGWzGMC8?s=cl https://ifunny.co/video/shoestring-machine-gun-in-september-...
  - panarky 3y ago
    How would you re-write the statute so that it would apply to this?
- michaelt 3y ago
  Presumably if I had a semi-automatic rifle and I attached a solenoid to the rifle's trigger then set up an arduino to actuate the solenoid at 2Hz whenever a button was held down, the button would become the gun's trigger for purposes of determining whether the rifle+solenoid+arduino assembly was a machine gun.
Blackthorn 3y ago
Yeah, that definitely tracks for ATF and general firearm rules in the USA.
mcpackieh 3y ago
I may be wrong (I'm not going to try it myself!) but from what I understand that works with M1 Carbines and Mini-14s, but not M1 Garands. This photo of such a shoestring on a Mini-14 has been floating around for years: https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg
Zak 3y ago
This interpretation seems a little weird not because of the apparent declaration that a shoestring is a machine gun, but because a machine gun is defined in law as a firearm that fires more than one shot with "single function of the trigger". The shoestring in this case resets the trigger after firing so that it can be pulled again. It does not cause additional shots to be fired without a separate movement of the trigger caused by the shooter's muscles pulling on it.
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  Wouldn’t be the first time the ATF had an arbitrary and capricious interpretation of a statute.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Nor the last
- 13of40 3y ago
  Don't make me google it, but I thought they also consider a device that can make a semi-auto into full-auto a machinegun in itself. So much like an AR lower receiver, the shoestring is the gun, even though it doesn't have any classic gun features like a bolt, barrel, or breech, etc. Also, in the M1/shoestring case, the operator just puts tension on the string, and the charging handle cycling back and forth is what releases and applies that pressure to the trigger, so it is just one pull of their finger.
  - newsclues 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_sear https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_sear
- marktangotango 3y ago
  Surprisingly, gatling guns are not consider automatic by the definition or the atf [1]. But if one were to attach a hand drill in place of the crank? [1] https://tippmannordnance.com/22lr-gatling-gun/ https://tippmannordnance.com/22lr-gatling-gun/
pjc50 3y ago
Firearms regulation has a real "gun of Theseus" problem: if you have multiple parts combined into an illegal weapon, which one of those is the illegal part?
- psunavy03 3y ago
  Generally the one that makes it illegal. For the AR platform, for instance, that would be the full-auto trigger group and a lower receiver drilled for a third hole to accommodate it. Some pro-gun people have gone to great lengths to find loopholes in the machine gun laws, and most of them are currently tied up in litigation with the ATF.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Ah, but you said it yourself. Is the third hole the problem? Or the drop in auto sear? Or the combination? According to the ATF, it’s any of the three of course. Plus anything else that they don’t like.
    - unethical_ban 3y ago
      In absence of an easy definition, what is illegal should be the gun which has the capability that is banned. If someone wraps a shoestring around a trigger group to make it "automatic", boom, it's an automatic weapon, seize the gun and arrest the citizen. It's the characteristic. It's why banning guns based off scary black foregrips is silly. If we were to limit guns meaningfully in the US, we should ban all semi-automatic weapons with interchangeable magazines. You still have bolt actions, revolvers, shotguns, but this lowers rate of fire/reload time in combination well enough to meaningfully encumber terrorists. For the 2A crowd ( of which I am a tepid member), my main principle is that citizens should be no less armed than their domestic law enforcement. So if we as a country made such a change, we would have to set a date past which domestic law enforcement must also switch back to revolvers and shotguns only. And now we really live in a fantasy world! Truly, it would be better for society to be less armed, but we're past the point of no return. I say this as someone who owns close to a dozen firearms, including mosins, AR-15 and several semi-automatic pistols.

queuebert 3y ago

"How to Build a Machine Gun on a Shoestring Budget"

rideontime 3y ago

That seems reasonable.

panarky 3y ago

According to the literal text of the statute quoted there, the definition of "machinegun" hinges on a "single function of the trigger". If the shoestring achieves rapid fire by causing multiple functions of the trigger, how is it a machinegun by that definition? Also, for anyone like me who expected that jpg would be a photo of the shoestring instead of text on paper, here's what it looks like. https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg

aardvarkr 3y ago
Here’s the shoestring-modified M1 in operation. That’s pretty clearly a fully automatic weapon. https://ifunny.co/video/shoestring-machine-gun-in-september-2004-the-atf-decided-that-mKGWzGMC8?s=cl https://ifunny.co/video/shoestring-machine-gun-in-september-...
- panarky 3y ago
  How would you re-write the statute so that it would apply to this?
michaelt 3y ago
Presumably if I had a semi-automatic rifle and I attached a solenoid to the rifle's trigger then set up an arduino to actuate the solenoid at 2Hz whenever a button was held down, the button would become the gun's trigger for purposes of determining whether the rifle+solenoid+arduino assembly was a machine gun.

Blackthorn 3y ago

Yeah, that definitely tracks for ATF and general firearm rules in the USA.

mcpackieh 3y ago

I may be wrong (I'm not going to try it myself!) but from what I understand that works with M1 Carbines and Mini-14s, but not M1 Garands. This photo of such a shoestring on a Mini-14 has been floating around for years: https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5N3EHxh.jpg

Zak 3y ago

This interpretation seems a little weird not because of the apparent declaration that a shoestring is a machine gun, but because a machine gun is defined in law as a firearm that fires more than one shot with "single function of the trigger". The shoestring in this case resets the trigger after firing so that it can be pulled again. It does not cause additional shots to be fired without a separate movement of the trigger caused by the shooter's muscles pulling on it.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago
Wouldn’t be the first time the ATF had an arbitrary and capricious interpretation of a statute.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Nor the last
13of40 3y ago
Don't make me google it, but I thought they also consider a device that can make a semi-auto into full-auto a machinegun in itself. So much like an AR lower receiver, the shoestring is the gun, even though it doesn't have any classic gun features like a bolt, barrel, or breech, etc. Also, in the M1/shoestring case, the operator just puts tension on the string, and the charging handle cycling back and forth is what releases and applies that pressure to the trigger, so it is just one pull of their finger.
- newsclues 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_sear https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_sear
marktangotango 3y ago
Surprisingly, gatling guns are not consider automatic by the definition or the atf [1]. But if one were to attach a hand drill in place of the crank? [1] https://tippmannordnance.com/22lr-gatling-gun/ https://tippmannordnance.com/22lr-gatling-gun/

pjc50 3y ago

Firearms regulation has a real "gun of Theseus" problem: if you have multiple parts combined into an illegal weapon, which one of those is the illegal part?

psunavy03 3y ago
Generally the one that makes it illegal. For the AR platform, for instance, that would be the full-auto trigger group and a lower receiver drilled for a third hole to accommodate it. Some pro-gun people have gone to great lengths to find loopholes in the machine gun laws, and most of them are currently tied up in litigation with the ATF.
- lazide 3y ago
  Ah, but you said it yourself. Is the third hole the problem? Or the drop in auto sear? Or the combination? According to the ATF, it’s any of the three of course. Plus anything else that they don’t like.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    In absence of an easy definition, what is illegal should be the gun which has the capability that is banned. If someone wraps a shoestring around a trigger group to make it "automatic", boom, it's an automatic weapon, seize the gun and arrest the citizen. It's the characteristic. It's why banning guns based off scary black foregrips is silly. If we were to limit guns meaningfully in the US, we should ban all semi-automatic weapons with interchangeable magazines. You still have bolt actions, revolvers, shotguns, but this lowers rate of fire/reload time in combination well enough to meaningfully encumber terrorists. For the 2A crowd ( of which I am a tepid member), my main principle is that citizens should be no less armed than their domestic law enforcement. So if we as a country made such a change, we would have to set a date past which domestic law enforcement must also switch back to revolvers and shotguns only. And now we really live in a fantasy world! Truly, it would be better for society to be less armed, but we're past the point of no return. I say this as someone who owns close to a dozen firearms, including mosins, AR-15 and several semi-automatic pistols.