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This is true, but then you have to also socially shame a large part of the US military, for invading Iraq. At least those that didn't resign as soon as it becam

This is true, but then you have to also socially shame a large part of the US military, for invading Iraq. At least those that didn't resign as soon as it became clear that there are no WMDs there, and the large amount of Iraqis were killed pretty much for nothing. In short - you have a point, but it's not quite that simple.

jdright 3y ago
it is not that simple, but the scale and impact is different too. You wouldn't download a car, would you?
bjourne 3y ago
Yeah, every single US soldier who voluntarily stepped on Iraqi soil should be sent to the ICC and tried for war crimes. Some of them would be exonerated for being too stupid/brainwashed to understand that they were committing criminal acts. Others wouldn't. However, those who develop the NSO spyware are middle class Israeli citizens who easily could get a well-paying job at a less repugnant company. There are no extenuating circumstances, no "had to put food on my table", no claims of being fooled/brainwashed. They 100% deserve to be punished and they 100% deserve our disgust.
- nverno 3y ago
  I don't know- I imagine deserting your brothers in arms (which may include your literal brother or sister) would be akin to deserting your family in a deadly situation. Regardless of how stupid the causes, once you're in the shit and people are at risk that you care about, the reasons you're there probably arent your biggest concern. The people that should be held accountable are the ones who orchestrated and perpetuated the whole thing, not the soldiers (unless they commit war crimes obviously).
  - rhamzeh 3y ago
    I mean, to follow that analogy, yeah people absolutely should abandon their families if the families are out there actively murdering innocents. The person saying that they're only staying to murder with their families because they care about them is not a redeeming quality, and they should definitely be held accountable and not excused for their crimes. For the record, I consider any armed person outside their home country should be considered as a terrorist and a militia and treated as such. There is no reason someone from country A should be carrying a weapon in country B and attacking people there. This is 100 times even more valid when country B has not authorized this.
    - nverno 3y ago
      I agree, but the world just isn't this simple. It's not about murdering with you family- it's about protecting your family. Kids I knew that went to Iraq were the protective types, not murderous. People can enlist in the military with the intention of protecting their country only to be ordered overseas caught up in some bullshit war. Historically, drafts were the main reason. And no man is an island, so whatever situation pulls one person in, is bound to ripple through other people's lives and pull others in as well. > I consider any armed person outside their home country should be considered as a terrorist and a militia I mean, there are situations like hostage crises where foreign countries send in soldiers that I think are completely justified. But, I agree, in general. Our foreign policy has been fucked since the CIA started after WWII. I'm just grateful I never had to fight a war- chances are I would've being born in the last couple hundred years
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  Why the soldiers? They aren't the ones that made the decision. Sure, if they committed war crimes themselves, but for anything else you have to address the people that actually were responsible. Prosecuting soldiers would be futile and certainly no justice. There was a lot of media propaganda to make the war popular. It wasn't at first but it didn't even take half a year until people ate it up. Liberal, conservative, didn't even matter. It was scary to see how quickly people were manipulated. It had large support in the population. People should stop and reflect what made them support the war, which messages and by whom. That is the responsibility they can take here and it would be much more constructive than putting the blame on soldiers... Israel citizens might have a better excuse to develop weapons than most other countries, so I don't see the point. Not an excuse, but at least an explanation.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    Because no American was forced to commit war crimes in Iraq. Yes, participating in an attack on a state that is of no imminent threat to your own is a war crime. Brainwashing may have been an extenuating circumstance, but a lot of Americans were staunchly against the war so how come they let themselves be brainwashed? If I join a gang can I claim to have been brainwashed when most people in fact do not join gangs? People are responsible for their own actions.

jdright 3y ago

it is not that simple, but the scale and impact is different too. You wouldn't download a car, would you?

bjourne 3y ago

Yeah, every single US soldier who voluntarily stepped on Iraqi soil should be sent to the ICC and tried for war crimes. Some of them would be exonerated for being too stupid/brainwashed to understand that they were committing criminal acts. Others wouldn't. However, those who develop the NSO spyware are middle class Israeli citizens who easily could get a well-paying job at a less repugnant company. There are no extenuating circumstances, no "had to put food on my table", no claims of being fooled/brainwashed. They 100% deserve to be punished and they 100% deserve our disgust.

nverno 3y ago
I don't know- I imagine deserting your brothers in arms (which may include your literal brother or sister) would be akin to deserting your family in a deadly situation. Regardless of how stupid the causes, once you're in the shit and people are at risk that you care about, the reasons you're there probably arent your biggest concern. The people that should be held accountable are the ones who orchestrated and perpetuated the whole thing, not the soldiers (unless they commit war crimes obviously).
- rhamzeh 3y ago
  I mean, to follow that analogy, yeah people absolutely should abandon their families if the families are out there actively murdering innocents. The person saying that they're only staying to murder with their families because they care about them is not a redeeming quality, and they should definitely be held accountable and not excused for their crimes. For the record, I consider any armed person outside their home country should be considered as a terrorist and a militia and treated as such. There is no reason someone from country A should be carrying a weapon in country B and attacking people there. This is 100 times even more valid when country B has not authorized this.
  - nverno 3y ago
    I agree, but the world just isn't this simple. It's not about murdering with you family- it's about protecting your family. Kids I knew that went to Iraq were the protective types, not murderous. People can enlist in the military with the intention of protecting their country only to be ordered overseas caught up in some bullshit war. Historically, drafts were the main reason. And no man is an island, so whatever situation pulls one person in, is bound to ripple through other people's lives and pull others in as well. > I consider any armed person outside their home country should be considered as a terrorist and a militia I mean, there are situations like hostage crises where foreign countries send in soldiers that I think are completely justified. But, I agree, in general. Our foreign policy has been fucked since the CIA started after WWII. I'm just grateful I never had to fight a war- chances are I would've being born in the last couple hundred years
raxxorraxor 3y ago
Why the soldiers? They aren't the ones that made the decision. Sure, if they committed war crimes themselves, but for anything else you have to address the people that actually were responsible. Prosecuting soldiers would be futile and certainly no justice. There was a lot of media propaganda to make the war popular. It wasn't at first but it didn't even take half a year until people ate it up. Liberal, conservative, didn't even matter. It was scary to see how quickly people were manipulated. It had large support in the population. People should stop and reflect what made them support the war, which messages and by whom. That is the responsibility they can take here and it would be much more constructive than putting the blame on soldiers... Israel citizens might have a better excuse to develop weapons than most other countries, so I don't see the point. Not an excuse, but at least an explanation.
- bjourne 3y ago
  Because no American was forced to commit war crimes in Iraq. Yes, participating in an attack on a state that is of no imminent threat to your own is a war crime. Brainwashing may have been an extenuating circumstance, but a lot of Americans were staunchly against the war so how come they let themselves be brainwashed? If I join a gang can I claim to have been brainwashed when most people in fact do not join gangs? People are responsible for their own actions.