4 ms·

Much of this stuff is classified as a weapon, and thus really sold by the Israeli government, not by the company. It's no different from a MANPADS that sometime

Much of this stuff is classified as a weapon, and thus really sold by the Israeli government, not by the company. It's no different from a MANPADS that sometimes is used to destroy a Ka-52 over Ukraine, and sometimes is used to shoot down a civilian airliner - that is to say it's directed by the foreign policy (and foreign policy errors) of the manufacturing country. There's no reason to expect the world to disarm any time soon, so the best approach is to be aware and democratically influence policy, rooting out bad ideas and bad actors. Israel is constantly trying to woo Saudi Arabia so that they can be allies during a potential war with Iran. Israel will definitely sacrifice some human rights activists just for the ability to cross the Saudi airspace. But it has not been going well for Israel lately.

throwaway290 3y ago
AFAIK Israeli government audits NSO and stuff, but they are separate... And Intellexa (authors of Predator I think?) doesn't even get audited because it's "not israeli" on paper
- H8crilA 3y ago
  The important part is export control - i.e. deciding who can buy the stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    If they are dumb and get caught during audit for selling to Sudan or something then sure, Israeli government will probably tell them they're bad. (And what, shut them down? Lol.)
- rany_ 3y ago
  It's more like they leverage it for diplomacy. The auditing means nothing really, it's being given to authoritarian government like Saudi Arabia as long as they are OK with Israel existing. The bar to get access to NSO tools is too low...
  - azernik 3y ago
    They don't really leverage it for diplomacy. Israeli arms exports policy consistently prioritizes getting better R&D economies of scale over actually affecting foreign states' behavior.
    - mola 3y ago
      Definitely part of diplomacy effort of netanyahu with the despots if the world. NSO CEO travelled with him to Saudi t among other places. It's software there's economics of scale by default.
      - azernik 3y ago
        Economies of scale only apply if you have scale, ie lots of (paying) users. If you're making this fancy thing for only the Israeli security services you won't be able to pay your developers.
        throwaway58480 3y ago
        Economy of scale is actually inverted with 0 days. The more you use it the higher the risk it's detected and fixed so value and scale are inversely proportional.
localplume 3y ago
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black_puppydog 3y ago
There's multiple responses echoing this idea that it's a defense company like any other and thus an evil we'll have to accept exists. That may be true, but these companies (NSO group is by no means worse than the rest of them, just more notorious) have been caught over and over again, selling these "weapons" to dictators, companies, etc, who in turn use them to spy on journalists and activists, not terrorists or anything of the sort. And that doesn't even go into keeping 0-days for the benefit of the few, keeping literally everyone on the planet less safe, which is arguably as big an issue, if more systemic. These companies may exist in some form or another because the nation state & private surveillance systems that form their client base want them to exist. But my point is that the individuals working at this company should be ashamed of themselves. I'm not appealing to their sense of morals, I'm talking purely about "us the tech community" making it abundantly clear that having one of these companies on your CV will make it very hard to find any decent job afterwards. It needs to be socially expensive to work there. To loan from Max Goldt's opinion on the BILD newspaper [1]: > NSO Group and the like are an organ of infamy. It is wrong to use their products. Someone who contributes to these products is absolutely socially unacceptable. It would be remiss to be friendly or even polite to any of their developers or managers. One must be as unkind to them as the law will just allow. They are bad people who do wrong. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6758128-die-bild-zeitung-ist-ein-organ-der-niedertracht-es-ist-falsch https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6758128-die-bild-zeitung-is...
- azernik 3y ago
  Yeah, I think the appropriate comparison is if a weapons manufacturer made "selling to dictatorships for suppressing dissidents" the core of its business strategy.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- H8crilA 3y ago
  This is true, but then you have to also socially shame a large part of the US military, for invading Iraq. At least those that didn't resign as soon as it became clear that there are no WMDs there, and the large amount of Iraqis were killed pretty much for nothing. In short - you have a point, but it's not quite that simple.
stefan_ 3y ago
They don't just make a gun, sell it and then it's up to whoever uses it. It is well established they run the C&C servers and tailor operations - they are combatants.
lr4444lr 3y ago
> Israel is constantly trying to woo Saudi Arabia so that they can be allies during a potential war with Iran. You have that reversed. Recent Iranian regimes have been especially hostile toward Israel, but that's nowhere near as longstanding an enmity as Saudi/Iran.

throwaway290 3y ago

AFAIK Israeli government audits NSO and stuff, but they are separate... And Intellexa (authors of Predator I think?) doesn't even get audited because it's "not israeli" on paper

H8crilA 3y ago
The important part is export control - i.e. deciding who can buy the stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group
- throwaway290 3y ago
  If they are dumb and get caught during audit for selling to Sudan or something then sure, Israeli government will probably tell them they're bad. (And what, shut them down? Lol.)
rany_ 3y ago
It's more like they leverage it for diplomacy. The auditing means nothing really, it's being given to authoritarian government like Saudi Arabia as long as they are OK with Israel existing. The bar to get access to NSO tools is too low...
- azernik 3y ago
  They don't really leverage it for diplomacy. Israeli arms exports policy consistently prioritizes getting better R&D economies of scale over actually affecting foreign states' behavior.
  - mola 3y ago
    Definitely part of diplomacy effort of netanyahu with the despots if the world. NSO CEO travelled with him to Saudi t among other places. It's software there's economics of scale by default.
    - azernik 3y ago
      Economies of scale only apply if you have scale, ie lots of (paying) users. If you're making this fancy thing for only the Israeli security services you won't be able to pay your developers.
      - throwaway58480 3y ago
        Economy of scale is actually inverted with 0 days. The more you use it the higher the risk it's detected and fixed so value and scale are inversely proportional.

localplume 3y ago

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black_puppydog 3y ago

There's multiple responses echoing this idea that it's a defense company like any other and thus an evil we'll have to accept exists. That may be true, but these companies (NSO group is by no means worse than the rest of them, just more notorious) have been caught over and over again, selling these "weapons" to dictators, companies, etc, who in turn use them to spy on journalists and activists, not terrorists or anything of the sort. And that doesn't even go into keeping 0-days for the benefit of the few, keeping literally everyone on the planet less safe, which is arguably as big an issue, if more systemic. These companies may exist in some form or another because the nation state & private surveillance systems that form their client base want them to exist. But my point is that the individuals working at this company should be ashamed of themselves. I'm not appealing to their sense of morals, I'm talking purely about "us the tech community" making it abundantly clear that having one of these companies on your CV will make it very hard to find any decent job afterwards. It needs to be socially expensive to work there. To loan from Max Goldt's opinion on the BILD newspaper [1]: > NSO Group and the like are an organ of infamy. It is wrong to use their products. Someone who contributes to these products is absolutely socially unacceptable. It would be remiss to be friendly or even polite to any of their developers or managers. One must be as unkind to them as the law will just allow. They are bad people who do wrong. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6758128-die-bild-zeitung-ist-ein-organ-der-niedertracht-es-ist-falsch https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6758128-die-bild-zeitung-is...

azernik 3y ago
Yeah, I think the appropriate comparison is if a weapons manufacturer made "selling to dictatorships for suppressing dissidents" the core of its business strategy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
H8crilA 3y ago
This is true, but then you have to also socially shame a large part of the US military, for invading Iraq. At least those that didn't resign as soon as it became clear that there are no WMDs there, and the large amount of Iraqis were killed pretty much for nothing. In short - you have a point, but it's not quite that simple.

stefan_ 3y ago

They don't just make a gun, sell it and then it's up to whoever uses it. It is well established they run the C&C servers and tailor operations - they are combatants.

lr4444lr 3y ago

> Israel is constantly trying to woo Saudi Arabia so that they can be allies during a potential war with Iran. You have that reversed. Recent Iranian regimes have been especially hostile toward Israel, but that's nowhere near as longstanding an enmity as Saudi/Iran.