7 ms·

iOS 17 sideloading support is coming, and Apple can’t stop it

79 points by quyleanh 3y ago

theshrike79 3y ago
So now that Apple is forced to add sideloading, when will we do the same for Xbox, PS5 and Switch? I definitely want a 3rd party app store on my switch, one with emulators and all that jazz.
warning26 3y ago
I'd love to sideload on my iPad, but let's be realistic, Apple will do everything in their power to sidestep the spirit of the law. Here are some guesses: - Sideloading only works with an EU Apple Account, on a device purchased in the EU, while you are physically in the EU - Enabling "sideloading mode" will disable a bunch of other features for [IMPORTANT_SOUNDING_REASON]
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  While I agree with you that shenanigans are virtually guaranteed, I don't think your two methods will work. They certainly could try to limit it to Europe, but they won't be able to limit it only to European soil. Travelers who find their sideloaded apps disabled or deleted will complain, and they'll be subject to fines again. The other one would be problematic too... sabotaging the phone when it's legally compliant will see an even swifter crackdown.
- gnyman 3y ago
  Yeah, I look forward to getting sideloading and at the end of last year it seemed like apple was preparing to play nice, and there was rumours they would announce info at WWDC2023 and that it would be included in iOS17 (which would mean ahead of the required deadline). But then the rumours stopped. Which made me come to the same conclusion as you. And looking at previous examples of BigTech defying the spirit of directives, like how Google blatantly ignored the consent rules for GDPR for 3 years[1], I guess we will get proper working sideloading around 2027. The only hope is that even if it’s hard and complicated, it will make things like AltStore work well enough that I can sideload a few things to fix the biggest annoyances in iOS. [1] https://iapp.org/news/a/cnils-eprivacy-fines-reveal-potential-enforcement-trend/ https://iapp.org/news/a/cnils-eprivacy-fines-reveal-potentia...
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    Unlike GDPR, the DMA has specific provisions to prevent shenanigans: > 3. The gatekeeper shall ensure that the obligations of Articles 5, 6 and 7 are fully and effectively complied with. > 4. The gatekeeper shall not engage in any behaviour that undermines effective compliance with the obligations of Articles 5, 6 and 7 regardless of whether that behaviour is of a contractual, commercial or technical nature, or of any other nature, or consists in the use of behavioural techniques or interface design. > 6. The gatekeeper shall not degrade the conditions or quality of any of the core platform services provided to business users or end users who avail themselves of the rights or choices laid down in Articles 5, 6 and 7, or make the exercise of those rights or choices unduly difficult, including by offering choices to the end-user in a non-neutral manner, or by subverting end users’ or business users' autonomy, decision-making, or free choice via the structure, design, function or manner of operation of a user interface or a part thereof. > 7. Where the gatekeeper circumvents or attempts to circumvent any of the obligations in Article 5, 6, or 7 in a manner described in paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of this Article, the Commission may open proceedings pursuant to Article 20 and adopt an implementing act referred to in Article 8(2) in order to specify the measures that the gatekeeper is to implement.
    - Kon-Peki 3y ago
      I don't believe that the DMA has (or even could have, given ratified international treaties) anything that nullifies intellectual property rights. The gatekeepers are required to provide "fair" access, but that doesn't mean everything has to be free of charge. As an example, I would fully expect that iOS devices will continue to require digital signatures to execute, regardless of installation method. And those digital signatures will only be available to those who pay for the $99/yr developer program and comply with those regulations.
      - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
        What does sideloading have to do with IP rights? Merely making and distributing an app that calls APIs from the OS isn't an IP violation.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  > while you are physically in the EU This is the only part that really matters here, AFAIK. Practically, there's no good way to enforce this limitation. The residency thing is seared into my mind from people using EU "citizen" instead of EU "resident" when talking about the GDPR.
- m463 3y ago
  Doesn't eu law apply to european citizens living in other countries?
  - dogma1138 3y ago
    No.
- deaddodo 3y ago
  > - Sideloading only works with an EU Apple Account, on a device purchased in the EU, while you are physically in the EU Realistically, the only one of those terms they could realistically implement is requiring an account with an EU payment method (e.g. an EU account). EU citizens are still protected outside their country and EU law doesn't care where your purchased your phone, if you're a citizen.
deafpolygon 3y ago
Or they may pull out of the EU area temporarily.
- vages 3y ago
  And lose access to some of the countries with the highest iPhone market share per capita? (Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-market-share-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-ma...)
  - gameoverhumans 3y ago
    I don't doubt that Apple sells a lot of iPhones to rich western European countries. But, uh, I gotta call the quality of data from that website into question when it shows North Korea as having 99% iPhone share ;)
    - jedberg 3y ago
      It sort of makes sense. They're getting market share by using geo-ip and browser agent strings. Either a bunch of hackers in NK are pretending to be iPhones, or some small lab of iPhones was marked as NK in the geo-ip database. But since the numbers are probably tiny 99% probably isn't too hard to achieve.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    I really wonder if Apple could force the EU's hand by not selling iPhones under these rules. I'm not saying they would, but I do wonder if EU citizens would pressure lawmakers to rollback these rules in that case.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      That decision would be an insanely huge monetary blow to Apple that is absolutely not in line with the few percent drop they might get from a slightly fewer installs on the AppStore. Even if the EU law is instantly reversed, that would still make a lot of people angry at Apple, or they might have already bought Android and won’t turn back for years. The Brussels effect is very effective!
chatmasta 3y ago
I wonder how this will affect apps like Apollo, which can still run fine if you use your own API key, but wouldn't be able to publish compliantly on the App Store while giving users the capability to use their own key (since it violates Reddit TOS). More generally, will this lead to a resurgence of "unofficial" third-party apps for popular platforms like Instagram and Snapchat? These companies rely on the App Store to be the gatekeeper that stops such apps from proliferating. But if Apple can no longer control that, then I expect we'll see more usage of them. Perhaps Meta already understands this and sees it on the horizon, which is why Threads is built for the Fediverse, where third-party clients are the expected and default mode of operation.
- sumuyuda 3y ago
  I think so. The AppStore has a policy against developers using private third party APIs and Apple would remove the app if the company complained. Now the company can’t easily have the apps taken down.
- anileated 3y ago
  > More generally, will [sideloading] lead to a resurgence of "unofficial" third-party apps for popular platforms like Instagram and Snapchat? It will lead to piracy in general. But whom will it affect? Big companies like Meta won’t be worried about unofficial clients much, since the core is at the server anyway. There are many means of ensuring client authenticity, including by constantly changing the APIs, rotating secrets and updating the client. Even social media aside, almost no big company today releases “buy and own forever” apps that don’t tie to servers or use some sort of subscription model. (Affinity is the one exception that comes to mind.) So what sucks is that sideloading is going to eliminate the small indie dev who could make an honest living through the simple model of 1) make software, 2) let the user buy it once and own. Note who lobbied for sideloading (spoiler alert: very big companies).
tempodox 3y ago
It's a crying shame that it's the EU that upholds a remnant of competition and consumer rights while the “free market” in the US gets more corrupt by the day and the power of the big monopolies gets ever more cemented.
- yakubin 3y ago
  You can’t have free market without regulation. The very beginnings of it were about guaranteeing a free market through the use of cannon.
- tagitfast 3y ago
  [dead]
- Pingk 3y ago
  The free market will always tend towards monopolies/duopolies/oligopolies - it's the most efficient way to make money, which is exactly what capitalism incentivises. If you want to push for openness and transparency, you need strong government intervention and without a culture that pushes for it, it'll only get worse (see also right-to-repair).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - illiac786 3y ago
    Short/medium term maybe, long term monopolies are definitely producing less revenue, I can't find a good study about this but I read this multiple times.
- a-user-you-like 3y ago
  You’re encouraging regulation of the iPhone and calling it the free market. You’re confused. Android exists. Other phones exist. Use one of those. No one is twisting your arm. [predictably the communist wing of HN is out on the downvote]
  - 3y ago
nielsbot 3y ago
This is a win for openness (good!), but I am worried about the downsides. I worry many less tech-savvy users will end up with a lot of garbage (spyware, scuzzware, whatever) on their phones. Not that this problem doesn't exist via Apple's own store, but I worry it will be worse. Time will tell.
- Pingk 3y ago
  I think it'll be a big thing in tech circles, but I don't think the average user is going to install a third-party app store. It's also a lot of friction to convince people they should care and guide them through the process, meanwhile you can bet Apple and Google will have campaigns against it. Of course, people will make alternate scammmy app stores to prey on less savvy users, but someone could also make one with more moderation than Apple and force them to get better. I think the biggest change will be for developers to use their own payment system and keep more of the money, but there'll also be more risk of bad implementations leading to stolen card data. With great power, comes great responsibility...
  - nlitened 3y ago
    Oh there's no friction to stop a motivated non-tech-savvy user. Follow this instruction video to watch all movies free of charge! Click here, I will teach you how to save 30% on your Fortnite skins! Watch your cheating boyfriend with this forbidden app, easy 10-step guide! I have no idea how my mom gets her computer spyware-infected throughout between my visits, impossible for me to prevent that. Best idea so far has been to get her an iPhone and an iPad.
    - mikeyouse 3y ago
      I can see shitty, predatory service providers running their own preinstalled app stores for people looking for discounted iPhones.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Just set parental control on your mom’s devices.
gnicholas 3y ago
Will this have any effect on the App Store's ban on apps that have their own built-in app stores? I'm thinking of browsers that are compatible with the Chrome webstore, for example, which exist on Android but not on iOS.
- rezonant 3y ago
  That's a different problem. Apple forbids developers from shipping their own browser engine. Since devs can only use the Safari engine, they are limited to what Safari can do, and Safari doesn't support web extensions. But, since App Store can't stop new browsers with their own engines, also yes.
  - latexr 3y ago
    > Safari doesn't support web extensions. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/safari_web_extensions https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/saf... https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/28/safari-web-extensions/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/28/safari-web-extensions/
tomohelix 3y ago
Part of the reason I am still on Android is because I can install and uninstall whatever I want, including stuff like Revanced. I still love to have the battery and the "it just work" reliability from Apple though. Let see how this play out in the US. If Apple doesn't hobble it too much I might get an iPhone for my next phone. Guaranteed it will have some catches though. I also wonder how much it would affect the security side since Apple devices have been pretty secure so far with its walled garden approach.
- icev 3y ago
  Same here. And also Firefox with uBlock origin. Sideloading in iOS might finally convince me to move away from Android.
- Pingk 3y ago
  I'd love to read a study if the walled garden actually produces more secure software. I've heard this claim a lot but I also see lots of 0-day vulnerabilities for iPhones. There's a patch for an in-the-wild 0-day literally today. https://citizenlab.ca/2023/09/blastpass-nso-group-iphone-zero-click-zero-day-exploit-captured-in-the-wild/ https://citizenlab.ca/2023/09/blastpass-nso-group-iphone-zer...
  - vachina 3y ago
    It doesn’t produce more secure software but prevents users from installing Trojans themselves, e.g. keylogger masquerading as a restaurant app.
    - sschueller 3y ago
      It also prevents user from installing apps that the government doesn't approve off.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >including stuff like Revanced. Modded clients are notorious for stealing people's accounts. While Revanced is safe if you patch the official apk yourself, normal people will fall for trojans that inject malware into it.
JCWasmx86 3y ago
This really makes me reconsider buying an iPhone instead of some android phone in the future. The only thing left is that jail-breaking an iPhone seems to be harder than rooting an android phone.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
Why would/does this only apply to iOS 17? I thought earlier versions of iOS like 15 are still supported, getting security updates, and have access to the apple app store.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  Why would you run something else than the latest iOS? You do understand how much work porting new features to old operating systems is?
  - Someone 3y ago
    > Why would you run something else than the latest iOS? One good reason is that Apple doesn’t support the latest iOS on perfectly good hardware. Other ones could be that the older version takes up less space or that the new version is less useful for some users. Also, FTA (emphasis added): “Apple has six months to implement sideloading in iOS 17 and potentially older iOS versions”
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      What mobile phone company still releases an official OS for 7 year old hardware?
      - Someone 3y ago
        Apple released iOS 15.7.8 in July (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213842 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213842) It runs on the iPhone SE, which went on sale in March 2016.
  - extraduder_ire 3y ago
    iPhone 7, that's as far as it'll update. I understand the difficulty in porting things and adding features, but I don't think there's an exemption in the law for when complying is too difficult yet still possible. Main thing that got me wondering about this was "app store" being listed seperately from iOS in the EU supplied image.
est 3y ago
Not in China though. A recent law requires phone vendors to register all Apps to the authority. Any "side-loading" is viewed as a risk to national security.
- _hzw 3y ago
  It's more likely that the authority will establish their own App Store, and everyone will be required to install national security-related apps from it.
  - est 3y ago
    > authority will establish their own App Store No, the government want the power to de-list unwanted apps.
- akmarinov 3y ago
  Sideloading would most likely apply only to Europe. The US will continue as its at the moment, same with China.
somethoughts 3y ago
If anyone from Apple marketing/leadership is out there... as a tech savvy but plain jane iPhone user - I really do just want a bubble wrapped, walled garden iPhone experience where everything just works and I don't have to read every scary sounding "iPhone has been hacked" click bait article in breathless suspense only to read the fine print to find the end user in question was dabbling in some sketchy third party app. (As an example - the top HN article at this moment is about iPhone being hacked). I really think that Apple could have/could still head this off by introducing a separately branded edgier "dev" phone for people who want to live on the cutting edge. Give it a different persona (gamer hardware form factor and use distinctive UX elements) to ensure that when the journalist tries to create masthead graphics for their clickbait article, its obvious it only applies to non-walled garden phones. Then let the market decide - maybe in fact the majority of Apple smartphone users do in fact want live life on the edge.
- leodriesch 3y ago
  I don’t think this would suffice since the regulations would apply to EVERY iOS device, not just a specific iPhone.
  - salzig 3y ago
    Give every iPhone User the option to switch modes. ;)
  - somethoughts 3y ago
    Agree - the time to have launched a "dev/gamer" phone (maybe call it the xPhone with xOs) was probably 2 years ago when they first got a whiff of these regulations. They could then have done a more controlled experiment on a subset of willing participants and had a much smaller blast radius if things got really hacked. Now that the regulations are here its too late.
  - deergomoo 3y ago
    I’m far more excited about what this may unlock for the iPad than the iPhone. I might actually be able to use it to the capabilities of its hardware.
idle_zealot 3y ago
All I see about the DMA is how it will require Apple to allow sideloading apps on iOS. But the language of the act seemed to suggest to me that it would require Apple to allow users to install other operating systems on their hardware as well. Has there been any analysis of this, did I just totally misunderstand?
singularity2001 3y ago
Will this allow finally replacing that Siri mess with a capable Assistant or is this out of scope even when using private APIs?
stranded22 3y ago
All I want to do is use a proper browser on my iPad rather than having to use a reskinned Safari. If I could also have it on my iPhone too, then I’d be even happier.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  That might take a little longer, it seems. From the linked source on europa.eu; > Second, the Commission opened a qualitative market investigation pursuant to article 3(8) DMA into iPadOS to determine whether iPadOS, despite not meeting the quantitative thresholds, constitutes a gateway for business users to reach end users. It seems like their rebranding a few years ago might really pay off.

79 points by quyleanh 3y ago

So now that Apple is forced to add sideloading, when will we do the same for Xbox, PS5 and Switch? I definitely want a 3rd party app store on my switch, one with emulators and all that jazz.

warning26 3y ago

I'd love to sideload on my iPad, but let's be realistic, Apple will do everything in their power to sidestep the spirit of the law. Here are some guesses: - Sideloading only works with an EU Apple Account, on a device purchased in the EU, while you are physically in the EU - Enabling "sideloading mode" will disable a bunch of other features for [IMPORTANT_SOUNDING_REASON]

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
While I agree with you that shenanigans are virtually guaranteed, I don't think your two methods will work. They certainly could try to limit it to Europe, but they won't be able to limit it only to European soil. Travelers who find their sideloaded apps disabled or deleted will complain, and they'll be subject to fines again. The other one would be problematic too... sabotaging the phone when it's legally compliant will see an even swifter crackdown.
gnyman 3y ago
Yeah, I look forward to getting sideloading and at the end of last year it seemed like apple was preparing to play nice, and there was rumours they would announce info at WWDC2023 and that it would be included in iOS17 (which would mean ahead of the required deadline). But then the rumours stopped. Which made me come to the same conclusion as you. And looking at previous examples of BigTech defying the spirit of directives, like how Google blatantly ignored the consent rules for GDPR for 3 years[1], I guess we will get proper working sideloading around 2027. The only hope is that even if it’s hard and complicated, it will make things like AltStore work well enough that I can sideload a few things to fix the biggest annoyances in iOS. [1] https://iapp.org/news/a/cnils-eprivacy-fines-reveal-potential-enforcement-trend/ https://iapp.org/news/a/cnils-eprivacy-fines-reveal-potentia...
- EMIRELADERO 3y ago
  Unlike GDPR, the DMA has specific provisions to prevent shenanigans: > 3. The gatekeeper shall ensure that the obligations of Articles 5, 6 and 7 are fully and effectively complied with. > 4. The gatekeeper shall not engage in any behaviour that undermines effective compliance with the obligations of Articles 5, 6 and 7 regardless of whether that behaviour is of a contractual, commercial or technical nature, or of any other nature, or consists in the use of behavioural techniques or interface design. > 6. The gatekeeper shall not degrade the conditions or quality of any of the core platform services provided to business users or end users who avail themselves of the rights or choices laid down in Articles 5, 6 and 7, or make the exercise of those rights or choices unduly difficult, including by offering choices to the end-user in a non-neutral manner, or by subverting end users’ or business users' autonomy, decision-making, or free choice via the structure, design, function or manner of operation of a user interface or a part thereof. > 7. Where the gatekeeper circumvents or attempts to circumvent any of the obligations in Article 5, 6, or 7 in a manner described in paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of this Article, the Commission may open proceedings pursuant to Article 20 and adopt an implementing act referred to in Article 8(2) in order to specify the measures that the gatekeeper is to implement.
  - Kon-Peki 3y ago
    I don't believe that the DMA has (or even could have, given ratified international treaties) anything that nullifies intellectual property rights. The gatekeepers are required to provide "fair" access, but that doesn't mean everything has to be free of charge. As an example, I would fully expect that iOS devices will continue to require digital signatures to execute, regardless of installation method. And those digital signatures will only be available to those who pay for the $99/yr developer program and comply with those regulations.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      What does sideloading have to do with IP rights? Merely making and distributing an app that calls APIs from the OS isn't an IP violation.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
> while you are physically in the EU This is the only part that really matters here, AFAIK. Practically, there's no good way to enforce this limitation. The residency thing is seared into my mind from people using EU "citizen" instead of EU "resident" when talking about the GDPR.
m463 3y ago
Doesn't eu law apply to european citizens living in other countries?
- dogma1138 3y ago
  No.
deaddodo 3y ago
> - Sideloading only works with an EU Apple Account, on a device purchased in the EU, while you are physically in the EU Realistically, the only one of those terms they could realistically implement is requiring an account with an EU payment method (e.g. an EU account). EU citizens are still protected outside their country and EU law doesn't care where your purchased your phone, if you're a citizen.

deafpolygon 3y ago

Or they may pull out of the EU area temporarily.

vages 3y ago
And lose access to some of the countries with the highest iPhone market share per capita? (Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-market-share-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-ma...)
- gameoverhumans 3y ago
  I don't doubt that Apple sells a lot of iPhones to rich western European countries. But, uh, I gotta call the quality of data from that website into question when it shows North Korea as having 99% iPhone share ;)
  - jedberg 3y ago
    It sort of makes sense. They're getting market share by using geo-ip and browser agent strings. Either a bunch of hackers in NK are pretending to be iPhones, or some small lab of iPhones was marked as NK in the geo-ip database. But since the numbers are probably tiny 99% probably isn't too hard to achieve.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  I really wonder if Apple could force the EU's hand by not selling iPhones under these rules. I'm not saying they would, but I do wonder if EU citizens would pressure lawmakers to rollback these rules in that case.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    That decision would be an insanely huge monetary blow to Apple that is absolutely not in line with the few percent drop they might get from a slightly fewer installs on the AppStore. Even if the EU law is instantly reversed, that would still make a lot of people angry at Apple, or they might have already bought Android and won’t turn back for years. The Brussels effect is very effective!

chatmasta 3y ago

I wonder how this will affect apps like Apollo, which can still run fine if you use your own API key, but wouldn't be able to publish compliantly on the App Store while giving users the capability to use their own key (since it violates Reddit TOS). More generally, will this lead to a resurgence of "unofficial" third-party apps for popular platforms like Instagram and Snapchat? These companies rely on the App Store to be the gatekeeper that stops such apps from proliferating. But if Apple can no longer control that, then I expect we'll see more usage of them. Perhaps Meta already understands this and sees it on the horizon, which is why Threads is built for the Fediverse, where third-party clients are the expected and default mode of operation.

sumuyuda 3y ago
I think so. The AppStore has a policy against developers using private third party APIs and Apple would remove the app if the company complained. Now the company can’t easily have the apps taken down.
anileated 3y ago
> More generally, will [sideloading] lead to a resurgence of "unofficial" third-party apps for popular platforms like Instagram and Snapchat? It will lead to piracy in general. But whom will it affect? Big companies like Meta won’t be worried about unofficial clients much, since the core is at the server anyway. There are many means of ensuring client authenticity, including by constantly changing the APIs, rotating secrets and updating the client. Even social media aside, almost no big company today releases “buy and own forever” apps that don’t tie to servers or use some sort of subscription model. (Affinity is the one exception that comes to mind.) So what sucks is that sideloading is going to eliminate the small indie dev who could make an honest living through the simple model of 1) make software, 2) let the user buy it once and own. Note who lobbied for sideloading (spoiler alert: very big companies).

tempodox 3y ago

It's a crying shame that it's the EU that upholds a remnant of competition and consumer rights while the “free market” in the US gets more corrupt by the day and the power of the big monopolies gets ever more cemented.

yakubin 3y ago
You can’t have free market without regulation. The very beginnings of it were about guaranteeing a free market through the use of cannon.
tagitfast 3y ago
[dead]
Pingk 3y ago
The free market will always tend towards monopolies/duopolies/oligopolies - it's the most efficient way to make money, which is exactly what capitalism incentivises. If you want to push for openness and transparency, you need strong government intervention and without a culture that pushes for it, it'll only get worse (see also right-to-repair).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- illiac786 3y ago
  Short/medium term maybe, long term monopolies are definitely producing less revenue, I can't find a good study about this but I read this multiple times.
a-user-you-like 3y ago
You’re encouraging regulation of the iPhone and calling it the free market. You’re confused. Android exists. Other phones exist. Use one of those. No one is twisting your arm. [predictably the communist wing of HN is out on the downvote]
- 3y ago

nielsbot 3y ago

This is a win for openness (good!), but I am worried about the downsides. I worry many less tech-savvy users will end up with a lot of garbage (spyware, scuzzware, whatever) on their phones. Not that this problem doesn't exist via Apple's own store, but I worry it will be worse. Time will tell.

Pingk 3y ago
I think it'll be a big thing in tech circles, but I don't think the average user is going to install a third-party app store. It's also a lot of friction to convince people they should care and guide them through the process, meanwhile you can bet Apple and Google will have campaigns against it. Of course, people will make alternate scammmy app stores to prey on less savvy users, but someone could also make one with more moderation than Apple and force them to get better. I think the biggest change will be for developers to use their own payment system and keep more of the money, but there'll also be more risk of bad implementations leading to stolen card data. With great power, comes great responsibility...
- nlitened 3y ago
  Oh there's no friction to stop a motivated non-tech-savvy user. Follow this instruction video to watch all movies free of charge! Click here, I will teach you how to save 30% on your Fortnite skins! Watch your cheating boyfriend with this forbidden app, easy 10-step guide! I have no idea how my mom gets her computer spyware-infected throughout between my visits, impossible for me to prevent that. Best idea so far has been to get her an iPhone and an iPad.
  - mikeyouse 3y ago
    I can see shitty, predatory service providers running their own preinstalled app stores for people looking for discounted iPhones.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Just set parental control on your mom’s devices.

gnicholas 3y ago

Will this have any effect on the App Store's ban on apps that have their own built-in app stores? I'm thinking of browsers that are compatible with the Chrome webstore, for example, which exist on Android but not on iOS.

rezonant 3y ago
That's a different problem. Apple forbids developers from shipping their own browser engine. Since devs can only use the Safari engine, they are limited to what Safari can do, and Safari doesn't support web extensions. But, since App Store can't stop new browsers with their own engines, also yes.
- latexr 3y ago
  > Safari doesn't support web extensions. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/safari_web_extensions https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safariservices/saf... https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/28/safari-web-extensions/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/28/safari-web-extensions/

tomohelix 3y ago

Part of the reason I am still on Android is because I can install and uninstall whatever I want, including stuff like Revanced. I still love to have the battery and the "it just work" reliability from Apple though. Let see how this play out in the US. If Apple doesn't hobble it too much I might get an iPhone for my next phone. Guaranteed it will have some catches though. I also wonder how much it would affect the security side since Apple devices have been pretty secure so far with its walled garden approach.

icev 3y ago
Same here. And also Firefox with uBlock origin. Sideloading in iOS might finally convince me to move away from Android.
Pingk 3y ago
I'd love to read a study if the walled garden actually produces more secure software. I've heard this claim a lot but I also see lots of 0-day vulnerabilities for iPhones. There's a patch for an in-the-wild 0-day literally today. https://citizenlab.ca/2023/09/blastpass-nso-group-iphone-zero-click-zero-day-exploit-captured-in-the-wild/ https://citizenlab.ca/2023/09/blastpass-nso-group-iphone-zer...
- vachina 3y ago
  It doesn’t produce more secure software but prevents users from installing Trojans themselves, e.g. keylogger masquerading as a restaurant app.
  - sschueller 3y ago
    It also prevents user from installing apps that the government doesn't approve off.
charcircuit 3y ago
>including stuff like Revanced. Modded clients are notorious for stealing people's accounts. While Revanced is safe if you patch the official apk yourself, normal people will fall for trojans that inject malware into it.

JCWasmx86 3y ago

This really makes me reconsider buying an iPhone instead of some android phone in the future. The only thing left is that jail-breaking an iPhone seems to be harder than rooting an android phone.

extraduder_ire 3y ago

Why would/does this only apply to iOS 17? I thought earlier versions of iOS like 15 are still supported, getting security updates, and have access to the apple app store.

theshrike79 3y ago
Why would you run something else than the latest iOS? You do understand how much work porting new features to old operating systems is?
- Someone 3y ago
  > Why would you run something else than the latest iOS? One good reason is that Apple doesn’t support the latest iOS on perfectly good hardware. Other ones could be that the older version takes up less space or that the new version is less useful for some users. Also, FTA (emphasis added): “Apple has six months to implement sideloading in iOS 17 and potentially older iOS versions”
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    What mobile phone company still releases an official OS for 7 year old hardware?
    - Someone 3y ago
      Apple released iOS 15.7.8 in July (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213842 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213842) It runs on the iPhone SE, which went on sale in March 2016.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  iPhone 7, that's as far as it'll update. I understand the difficulty in porting things and adding features, but I don't think there's an exemption in the law for when complying is too difficult yet still possible. Main thing that got me wondering about this was "app store" being listed seperately from iOS in the EU supplied image.

est 3y ago

Not in China though. A recent law requires phone vendors to register all Apps to the authority. Any "side-loading" is viewed as a risk to national security.

_hzw 3y ago
It's more likely that the authority will establish their own App Store, and everyone will be required to install national security-related apps from it.
- est 3y ago
  > authority will establish their own App Store No, the government want the power to de-list unwanted apps.
akmarinov 3y ago
Sideloading would most likely apply only to Europe. The US will continue as its at the moment, same with China.

somethoughts 3y ago

If anyone from Apple marketing/leadership is out there... as a tech savvy but plain jane iPhone user - I really do just want a bubble wrapped, walled garden iPhone experience where everything just works and I don't have to read every scary sounding "iPhone has been hacked" click bait article in breathless suspense only to read the fine print to find the end user in question was dabbling in some sketchy third party app. (As an example - the top HN article at this moment is about iPhone being hacked). I really think that Apple could have/could still head this off by introducing a separately branded edgier "dev" phone for people who want to live on the cutting edge. Give it a different persona (gamer hardware form factor and use distinctive UX elements) to ensure that when the journalist tries to create masthead graphics for their clickbait article, its obvious it only applies to non-walled garden phones. Then let the market decide - maybe in fact the majority of Apple smartphone users do in fact want live life on the edge.

leodriesch 3y ago
I don’t think this would suffice since the regulations would apply to EVERY iOS device, not just a specific iPhone.
- salzig 3y ago
  Give every iPhone User the option to switch modes. ;)
- somethoughts 3y ago
  Agree - the time to have launched a "dev/gamer" phone (maybe call it the xPhone with xOs) was probably 2 years ago when they first got a whiff of these regulations. They could then have done a more controlled experiment on a subset of willing participants and had a much smaller blast radius if things got really hacked. Now that the regulations are here its too late.
- deergomoo 3y ago
  I’m far more excited about what this may unlock for the iPad than the iPhone. I might actually be able to use it to the capabilities of its hardware.

idle_zealot 3y ago

All I see about the DMA is how it will require Apple to allow sideloading apps on iOS. But the language of the act seemed to suggest to me that it would require Apple to allow users to install other operating systems on their hardware as well. Has there been any analysis of this, did I just totally misunderstand?

singularity2001 3y ago

Will this allow finally replacing that Siri mess with a capable Assistant or is this out of scope even when using private APIs?

stranded22 3y ago

All I want to do is use a proper browser on my iPad rather than having to use a reskinned Safari. If I could also have it on my iPhone too, then I’d be even happier.

extraduder_ire 3y ago
That might take a little longer, it seems. From the linked source on europa.eu; > Second, the Commission opened a qualitative market investigation pursuant to article 3(8) DMA into iPadOS to determine whether iPadOS, despite not meeting the quantitative thresholds, constitutes a gateway for business users to reach end users. It seems like their rebranding a few years ago might really pay off.