4 ms·

I'm not sure how far along the Apple II version is, but that's not surprising given its ability to autoboot from a card. As I discuss in the linked thread, Fuji

by TMWNN 3y ago

I'm not sure how far along the Apple II version is, but that's not surprising given its ability to autoboot from a card. As I discuss in the linked thread, FujiNet for the C64 is not and cannot be the equivalent because of lack of SIO or something akin to it.

KerrAvon 3y ago
Haven’t watched this yet, but it should be enlightening https://fujinet.online/2023/06/28/fujinet-and-meatloaf-at-vcfsw-2023/ https://fujinet.online/2023/06/28/fujinet-and-meatloaf-at-vc...
rbanffy 3y ago
At least the disk interface is a serial one, and the 1541/1571 drives are smart devices much like the Atari ones. The disk interface is not as "general" as SIO, but it seems they are functionally very similar. Unless I understand it very wrong, in the base C64 OS, you run an "ls" by opening the floppy device and asking the drive to read it.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  Again, please read the linked thread. I explain the difference between SIO and Commodore's approach and why the latter doesn't allow what the former does, specifically autobooting and throughput.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    I understand SIO is better and Fujinet can do things on the Atari that are not possible on the C64, and can’t pretend to be a printer or modem because the 64 only used the disk port for disks. OTOH, while autobooting or running unmodified software is not an option, nothing prevents the modification of existing software to run with the Fujinet’s extra features. The very basic stuff, the ability to load software off a disk image, is there.
    - linker3000 3y ago
      The 64's serial (IEC) port uses device numbering to support daisy-chained disk drives, printers and other devices. https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Device_number https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Device_number. Fujinet on the C64 supports modem comms - the implementation is based on the Meatloaf project: https://meatloaf.cc/ https://meatloaf.cc/
      - TMWNN 3y ago
        Thanks for clarifying to rbanffy about emulating the printer; you beat me to it. I watched the Meatloaf videos; thank you. Does this mean that FujiNet hardware for the C64 will connect to both the serial and user ports? If so that would solve both the backward compatibility and throughput issues, at the cost of more hardware (but understandably so, given the C64's hardware). PS - What is the upper throughput limit on the Commodore serial bus? I know it's a serial version of IEEE-488, but I assumed that the upper limit is lower than what is required for modem access. But now that I think about it, the throughput for disk access (even if brokenly slow by default) must be much higher than that of contemporary modems, right? To put another way, is there anything—whether throughput, or signaling/traffic—inherently preventing modems on the serial port à la SIO?
        ddingus 3y ago
        I thought this was about the VIC badlines inhibiting faster serial comms due to a bug in the serial chip. It's fuzzy, but some things in the C64 are bit banged, and the badlines necessary for video DMA make that difficult at higher speeds.
ddingus 3y ago
There are compromises on all the platforms. SIO is really slick. Any software written to it will work with FujiNET, and basically operate with the network, as it would any other device. From what I understand, the C64 product requires one to use BASIC to kick something off, just like everyone does for the disk drives. But, after that it's looking like the overall features and experience are going to be there. The video shows command line access working. A more friendly client won't be far behind, and that could be in BASIC and perform reasonably in most cases. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzj65zxrDc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzj65zxrDc
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >From what I understand, the C64 product requires one to use BASIC to kick something off, just like everyone does for the disk drives. Yes, this is what I was alluding to. I know it's no big deal to type `LOAD "*",8,1` or whatever to start the FujiNet main menu, but there is still a qualitative difference between that and being able to turn the Atari 8-bit on and have the functionality automatically be available. That's possible on C64, too, but not if the hardware is connected only via the Commodore serial port; it would require the cartridge port, or a ROM change. As mentioned, I am also unsure of how the throughput would compare. EDIT: I forgot to mention the lack of functionality with telecom software. Commodore modems don't connect to the serial port, so terminal emulators and such won't work out of the box with FujiNet the way they can on Atari.
  - ddingus 3y ago
    I agree. Autoboot is just nice. Makes efforts that can be done that way feel like a part of the machine. The serial port is a bummer! What is used? Cart port?

by TMWNN 3y ago

KerrAvon 3y ago

Haven’t watched this yet, but it should be enlightening https://fujinet.online/2023/06/28/fujinet-and-meatloaf-at-vcfsw-2023/ https://fujinet.online/2023/06/28/fujinet-and-meatloaf-at-vc...

rbanffy 3y ago

At least the disk interface is a serial one, and the 1541/1571 drives are smart devices much like the Atari ones. The disk interface is not as "general" as SIO, but it seems they are functionally very similar. Unless I understand it very wrong, in the base C64 OS, you run an "ls" by opening the floppy device and asking the drive to read it.

TMWNN 3y ago
Again, please read the linked thread. I explain the difference between SIO and Commodore's approach and why the latter doesn't allow what the former does, specifically autobooting and throughput.
- rbanffy 3y ago
  I understand SIO is better and Fujinet can do things on the Atari that are not possible on the C64, and can’t pretend to be a printer or modem because the 64 only used the disk port for disks. OTOH, while autobooting or running unmodified software is not an option, nothing prevents the modification of existing software to run with the Fujinet’s extra features. The very basic stuff, the ability to load software off a disk image, is there.
  - linker3000 3y ago
    The 64's serial (IEC) port uses device numbering to support daisy-chained disk drives, printers and other devices. https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Device_number https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Device_number. Fujinet on the C64 supports modem comms - the implementation is based on the Meatloaf project: https://meatloaf.cc/ https://meatloaf.cc/
    - TMWNN 3y ago
      Thanks for clarifying to rbanffy about emulating the printer; you beat me to it. I watched the Meatloaf videos; thank you. Does this mean that FujiNet hardware for the C64 will connect to both the serial and user ports? If so that would solve both the backward compatibility and throughput issues, at the cost of more hardware (but understandably so, given the C64's hardware). PS - What is the upper throughput limit on the Commodore serial bus? I know it's a serial version of IEEE-488, but I assumed that the upper limit is lower than what is required for modem access. But now that I think about it, the throughput for disk access (even if brokenly slow by default) must be much higher than that of contemporary modems, right? To put another way, is there anything—whether throughput, or signaling/traffic—inherently preventing modems on the serial port à la SIO?
      - ddingus 3y ago
        I thought this was about the VIC badlines inhibiting faster serial comms due to a bug in the serial chip. It's fuzzy, but some things in the C64 are bit banged, and the badlines necessary for video DMA make that difficult at higher speeds.

ddingus 3y ago

There are compromises on all the platforms. SIO is really slick. Any software written to it will work with FujiNET, and basically operate with the network, as it would any other device. From what I understand, the C64 product requires one to use BASIC to kick something off, just like everyone does for the disk drives. But, after that it's looking like the overall features and experience are going to be there. The video shows command line access working. A more friendly client won't be far behind, and that could be in BASIC and perform reasonably in most cases. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzj65zxrDc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzj65zxrDc

TMWNN 3y ago
>From what I understand, the C64 product requires one to use BASIC to kick something off, just like everyone does for the disk drives. Yes, this is what I was alluding to. I know it's no big deal to type `LOAD "*",8,1` or whatever to start the FujiNet main menu, but there is still a qualitative difference between that and being able to turn the Atari 8-bit on and have the functionality automatically be available. That's possible on C64, too, but not if the hardware is connected only via the Commodore serial port; it would require the cartridge port, or a ROM change. As mentioned, I am also unsure of how the throughput would compare. EDIT: I forgot to mention the lack of functionality with telecom software. Commodore modems don't connect to the serial port, so terminal emulators and such won't work out of the box with FujiNet the way they can on Atari.
- ddingus 3y ago
  I agree. Autoboot is just nice. Makes efforts that can be done that way feel like a part of the machine. The serial port is a bummer! What is used? Cart port?