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How is that different than "chocolate" simply being a Spanish word which is very popular? Stealing words from other languages is arguably how most words get cre

How is that different than "chocolate" simply being a Spanish word which is very popular? Stealing words from other languages is arguably how most words get created.

moralestapia 3y ago
"Chocolate" is not Spanish, it's Nahuatl.
- tough 3y ago
  xocolatl In catalan still is -xocolata- close nough
klausa 3y ago
I think the line is _very_ thin, but I think I understand what OP means: "ok" is taken verbatim from english and has not undergone any "modifications" to adopt it to a local language (though, I guess, that is not 100% true? in polish we sometimes spell it "okej", but I would argue that "ok" and "okej" have slightly different connotations.) Whereas "chocolate" is "localized" into many other languages, "Schokolade" in german, "czekolada" in polish, etc.), and is not the _exact same word_.
- tmathmeyer 3y ago
  I would imagine that "okej" is more akin to English's "okay".
  - klausa 3y ago
    I can’t really explain why or how and my fellow countrymen could reasonably disagree with me, but „okej” to me has slightly negative/aggressive connotation? Like in an argument I’d type „okej, but you understand why that makes me feel bad”, whereas I _think_ I’d still use „ok” in English in that case? It’s really weird to explore the subtleties of your own language use to that degree, gotta say :P
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      Politeness is a whole topic on its own in linguistics. There is, for example, a divide between “Excuse me” and “Sorry” in English vs. “Bitte” and “Entshuldigung” in German. Cantonese Chinese has two different versions of “thank you”, one that is heartfelt and one that is for an expected service, and using the wrong one is a major faux pas.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      It's tricky because the pronunciation in English and Scandinavian languages (no idea about Polish) would be pretty much the same between OK/ok and okay/okei/okej (Swedish also uses okej; Norwegian okei) unless you spell out the "OK" which you sometimes do, sometimes don't in Norwegian at least (it's hard to tell because people might spell it out using English pronunciation), but my feeling is that especially if you intend the letters "O.K.", whether or not you spell it out, it tends to have a more positive, confirmatory sense, while if you use the word "okei" in Norwegian, you have more room to alter the pronunciation to imply sarcasm or doubt, e.g. stretching the syllables. I wonder if that may play in with other languages too. I think I'd be inclined to type out "okay" if I wanted a better shot at conveying that same thing in English in writing, perhaps with some ellipses. Eg. "Okay... But .." rather than "OK... But" or "OK, but". Maybe just because the short, abrupt "OK" feels more like it must mean certainty. This may very well be entirely personal, though, and I have no idea if others would notice the distinction.
gerdesj 3y ago
"Stealing words" That's a bit harsh. We borrow words (or loan them). We certainly don't steal them - you are welcome to take them back at any time. My favourite borrow word conundrum is "biftek". That is a loan word from French by quite a few languages (not English) - bifteck. Now, bifteck is derived from "beef steak" (English) English is a bit odd due to having several different words for an animal and its flesh via the Norse invasion in 1066. Here we have a cow and beef for the flesh. Cow is a Saxon word and beef is a French word. We also have sheep (Saxon) and mutton (French) and a few others (eg chicken and pullet, pig and pork). So we have biftek -> bifteck -> beef steak. However beef is a French word (boeuf). I gather that during a siege of Paris by British troops back in the day, the Parisians noticed that the rostbifs, roasted their beef over barbies. The locals usually boiled their beef, which was a heinous crime. My mother in law also managed to remove all flavour from beef, despite using a sanctioned method of cooking. Thankfully the Parisians noted that frying or roasting beef was the best way to do the job and also invented "medium", "rare" and "blue". The Brits basically charcoaled their beef. Despite being British, I like my steak blue.
- OJFord 3y ago
  > English is a bit odd due to having several different words for an animal and its flesh via the Norse invasion in 1066. Here we have a cow and beef for the flesh. Is it that odd? I've never seen vache on a menu in France. Keema in Hindi (and probably other indic languages) is non-descript mince, it wouldn't be beef in India of course, typically lamb or goat. Carne in many romance languages but in particular Spanish chili con carne just means 'meat'. I assume Spaniards have a different word for cows (or whatever they like in their chili), as well as probably an equivalent for beef.
  - yongjik 3y ago
    Speaking of oddities, Korean gogi (고기) means either "meat" (beef, pork, chicken, etc.) or "fish" the animal, but not the fish on your dish (which is saengseon 생선), because otherwise it would be too confusing.
- pyuser583 3y ago

How is that different than "chocolate" simply being a Spanish word which is very popular? Stealing words from other languages is arguably how most words get created.

moralestapia 3y ago

"Chocolate" is not Spanish, it's Nahuatl.

tough 3y ago
xocolatl In catalan still is -xocolata- close nough

klausa 3y ago

I think the line is _very_ thin, but I think I understand what OP means: "ok" is taken verbatim from english and has not undergone any "modifications" to adopt it to a local language (though, I guess, that is not 100% true? in polish we sometimes spell it "okej", but I would argue that "ok" and "okej" have slightly different connotations.) Whereas "chocolate" is "localized" into many other languages, "Schokolade" in german, "czekolada" in polish, etc.), and is not the _exact same word_.

tmathmeyer 3y ago
I would imagine that "okej" is more akin to English's "okay".
- klausa 3y ago
  I can’t really explain why or how and my fellow countrymen could reasonably disagree with me, but „okej” to me has slightly negative/aggressive connotation? Like in an argument I’d type „okej, but you understand why that makes me feel bad”, whereas I _think_ I’d still use „ok” in English in that case? It’s really weird to explore the subtleties of your own language use to that degree, gotta say :P
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Politeness is a whole topic on its own in linguistics. There is, for example, a divide between “Excuse me” and “Sorry” in English vs. “Bitte” and “Entshuldigung” in German. Cantonese Chinese has two different versions of “thank you”, one that is heartfelt and one that is for an expected service, and using the wrong one is a major faux pas.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    It's tricky because the pronunciation in English and Scandinavian languages (no idea about Polish) would be pretty much the same between OK/ok and okay/okei/okej (Swedish also uses okej; Norwegian okei) unless you spell out the "OK" which you sometimes do, sometimes don't in Norwegian at least (it's hard to tell because people might spell it out using English pronunciation), but my feeling is that especially if you intend the letters "O.K.", whether or not you spell it out, it tends to have a more positive, confirmatory sense, while if you use the word "okei" in Norwegian, you have more room to alter the pronunciation to imply sarcasm or doubt, e.g. stretching the syllables. I wonder if that may play in with other languages too. I think I'd be inclined to type out "okay" if I wanted a better shot at conveying that same thing in English in writing, perhaps with some ellipses. Eg. "Okay... But .." rather than "OK... But" or "OK, but". Maybe just because the short, abrupt "OK" feels more like it must mean certainty. This may very well be entirely personal, though, and I have no idea if others would notice the distinction.

gerdesj 3y ago

"Stealing words" That's a bit harsh. We borrow words (or loan them). We certainly don't steal them - you are welcome to take them back at any time. My favourite borrow word conundrum is "biftek". That is a loan word from French by quite a few languages (not English) - bifteck. Now, bifteck is derived from "beef steak" (English) English is a bit odd due to having several different words for an animal and its flesh via the Norse invasion in 1066. Here we have a cow and beef for the flesh. Cow is a Saxon word and beef is a French word. We also have sheep (Saxon) and mutton (French) and a few others (eg chicken and pullet, pig and pork). So we have biftek -> bifteck -> beef steak. However beef is a French word (boeuf). I gather that during a siege of Paris by British troops back in the day, the Parisians noticed that the rostbifs, roasted their beef over barbies. The locals usually boiled their beef, which was a heinous crime. My mother in law also managed to remove all flavour from beef, despite using a sanctioned method of cooking. Thankfully the Parisians noted that frying or roasting beef was the best way to do the job and also invented "medium", "rare" and "blue". The Brits basically charcoaled their beef. Despite being British, I like my steak blue.

OJFord 3y ago
> English is a bit odd due to having several different words for an animal and its flesh via the Norse invasion in 1066. Here we have a cow and beef for the flesh. Is it that odd? I've never seen vache on a menu in France. Keema in Hindi (and probably other indic languages) is non-descript mince, it wouldn't be beef in India of course, typically lamb or goat. Carne in many romance languages but in particular Spanish chili con carne just means 'meat'. I assume Spaniards have a different word for cows (or whatever they like in their chili), as well as probably an equivalent for beef.
- yongjik 3y ago
  Speaking of oddities, Korean gogi (고기) means either "meat" (beef, pork, chicken, etc.) or "fish" the animal, but not the fish on your dish (which is saengseon 생선), because otherwise it would be too confusing.
pyuser583 3y ago