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Okay, let's give that a whirl --- The Last Jedi Tomatometer 91% Audience 41%: Artsy Fartsy [Really?] --- The Greatest Showman Tomatometer 56% Audience 86

Okay, let's give that a whirl --- The Last Jedi Tomatometer 91% Audience 41%: Artsy Fartsy [Really?] --- The Greatest Showman Tomatometer 56% Audience 86%: Fun, not oscar worthy [Won Oscar for Best Original Song] --- EDIT: Truthfully, it was the release of these two films (both Dec 2017) that caused the Tomatormeter and I to part ways. Simply indefensible, IMO.

0x457 3y ago
TLJ was review bombed (movie sucked tho). Critics gave a good score out of fear imo. It's just an outlier for that rule. Oscar worthy - best picture, best actor, etc. Best original song isn't a top tier category. That year also had weak competition. The Greatest Showman was nominated in a single category, and it lost to Coco. I don't know where you got that it won. Coco got nominated in two categories, one of which was important, and won both. Coco also within 3% difference on rotten tomatoes.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  I'm sorry, you are correct. Nominated not won
bmelton 3y ago
For me, it was after they invited a new batch of reviewers who ended up bumping Citizen Kane from RT's "best movie all time" down a bunch of slots to such an extent that it was outranked by Paddington 2 I still use the ratings (because they're built into Plex) but mostly as a novelty, and sometimes as a puzzlement. Increasingly, you see scores like 5% tomato, 95% audience (or vice versa!) that I'm sure mean _something_ but rarely anything to me.
- Blackthorn 3y ago
  Paddington 2 is legitimately great though.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  I think this is mostly just a misunderstanding of what the RT score means. The scoring falls apart at the edges because its a measure of recommendability*, not a precision measure of quality. Exceptionally good movies (which Paddington 2 is btw) will trend heavily toward 100% and any drop from 100% are from outlier reviewers. Citizen Kane has 1/131 negative reviews and Paddington 2 has 2/253 negative reviews. If you want a rating of quality you can always just click on the score and see that paddington 2 has an 8.7 aggregate compared to Citizen Kane's 9.9. * what percent of viewers will not regret watching the movie. That makes this a combination metric of quality and variance. A low variance 7/10 will beat a high variance 8/10 in RT score
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  "Paddington 2" is one of the best movies ever made, it is up there with the "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari".
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  Both those movies have excellent scores. Does their relative ranking really matter?
dale_glass 3y ago
It sorta fits for TLJ. It's a movie with interesting ideas that break the mold vs the previous movie. I can see how critics might find it more interesting. Compared to TFA it's interesting to think about. But it sucks from the point of view of watching something enjoyable, and especially so if you were looking for a straight follow-up of TFA.
- Pxtl 3y ago
  I'll always take an interesting failure over a boring success. I thought that TLJ was incredibly uneven, but I wanted a sequel to that far more than a sequel to TFA.
  - darkerside 3y ago
    I think it depends how much you care about the source material. If you genuinely love and cherish it, it's hard to want to take risks, even those that might result in a better movie. There was probably some of that going on with the prequels. If you care less about it, then you'll surely want to try new things, and if it doesn't work out, no big deal.
    - Pxtl 3y ago
      Wow. "You obviously don't love Star Wars as much as me if you like The Last Jedi" is a heck of a take.
      - darkerside 3y ago
        Most people who live the works of Beethoven aren't opining that they wish he took more risks in his work. They respect his canon for what it is. Some people are very glad we've moved on to new and different music and that's OK. Some people think it's trash and noise and classical music is real music. And that's ok, too. I don't mean to offend you. I think this is a universal dynamic in a field as subjective as art and entertainment.
      - ShamelessC 3y ago
eindiran 3y ago
I can't comment on "The Greatest Showman" since I haven't seen it, but on a certain level "The Last Jedi" was kind of artsy fartsy; Rian Johnson spent so much time on cinematography and color grading[0] that he ended up with a movie that was visually very striking, without any plot fundamentals that felt like a deep betrayal to the universe. [0] Think space-walrus cliffs, or red-salt Hoth, or lightspeed kamikazee, or the Snoke throne room battle
- hyperhopper 3y ago
  > without any plot fundamentals that felt like a deep betrayal to the universe. 1. Luke went from the most optimistic and positive Jedi in the world, who found the good in Darth Vader, to a dude who tried to kill his own nephew without any explanation on how he got to that point aside from "I had a bad dream". Pathetic even if you ignore he also had dreams about becoming Darth Vader himself, and overcame those. 2. They completely destroyed any sense of time or speed with their "this turtle is so slow but too fast" race as the main plot point 3. Leia went into outer space unconscious but magically flew back in without dying??? 4. They kept the elderly Leia around, instead of having her do a hero's sendoff at the end. Instead, they killed the only good character that was set up perfectly to be the new cutthroat cunning but likable leader of the rebellion. 5. They ruined every other fight in star wars with the hyperspace joust. Why was any other fight a big deal when they could have just rammed a few ships with jump drives into the star destroyers, or hell, the death star. 6. Rey is somehow the strongest force user now despite no training. Every other Jedi that got to be that strong had a lifetime of training and tribulations, but now Rey can just beat kylo ren, a lifelong trained Jedi Skywalker with the power of the dark side, just because she's a Mary Sue. And this is just what I can remember on my phone while sitting at this bar. If you think this movie wasn't a deep betrayal to the universe, you didn't pay any attention to it.
  - the_af 3y ago
    I think the commenter you are replying to is saying it was a deep betrayal, though maybe their wording is not the best.
  - khazhoux 3y ago
notJim 3y ago
Ehh, I feel like if you broaden the system slightly, it still works. TLJ: cultural elites liked the whole burning the sacred texts thing, normies hated it. (NB: I only vaguely remember this movie and don't have strong opinions about it, don't crucify me.) The Greatest Showman: I assume "not oscar worthy" meant specifically not "Best Picture" worthy. It's a specific type of movie that wins that award. In any case, just like you append " reddit" to most searches, I recommend appending " letterboxd" to any movie searches. You do kind of have to read the reviews instead of just going by the rating though.
- krapp 3y ago
  >TLJ: cultural elites liked the whole burning the sacred texts thing, normies hated it. Wouldn't the "cultural elites" in this context be the hardcore Star Wars fans who hated everything about the new trilogy, and Luke's disillusionment arc in particular, and the "normies" be the mainstream fans who really didn't care?
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Cultural elites is within the context of the broader culture, not the narrow niche of Star Wars. They tend to hate Star Wars because it's wildly successful and popular, but it doesn't have any of the cultural crap that they want. Cultural Elites are the ones who decide what wins Oscars, for example.
  - notJim 3y ago
    I think the interesting thing about this comment and the other reply to it is that there are actually several different subgroups of people who all will have different takes on this. I meant cultural elites the way bluefirebrand described it (I'd put it a little differently, but still), but as you say, there is another group that you could call cultural elites as well (though this isn't usually how the term is used) The nice thing about letterboxd is that many different subgroups are represented, so you can find the reviews you vibe with and get a better idea of whether the movie will appeal to subgroup you're a part of. There's probably a pretty decent youtube essay on like the balkanization of culture and also the construction of identity through consumption, and how social media has turbo-charged all this here.
goto11 3y ago
The Last Jedi was incredibly successful. According to Wikipedia is "the highest-grossing film of 2017 and the ninth-highest-grossing film of all time." I have a hard time believing an audience score of 41% accurately reflects the opinions of the actual audience.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  It was part of a huge franchise, which it severely damaged. Of course people went in to see it. Most didn't like it, but they still paid for a ticket. However, many of them didn't bother watching the next one.
  - kevinventullo 3y ago
    Indeed, the trilogy were my favorite movies growing up, and I went to see TLJ on the opening week. Haven’t watched a Star War since.
  - mcmoor 3y ago
    Interestingly it may be more accurate to measure performance of a movie by the initial sale of its sequel. I haven't gathered any data but I guess it'll be interesting.
    - goto11 3y ago
      Box office across all three of the sequel trilogy moves. The same is the case for the three movies in the original trilogy btw, so I guess we should conclude that "Return of the Jedi" was the only Star Wars was movie people actually liked, since The Force Awakens is one of the most successful movies of all time? In reality, sequels tend to be less successful than the original, but can expect a certain audience. Since only very successful movies get sequels, sequels are still safer investments than original movies.
  - goto11 3y ago
    > many of them didn't bother watching the next one. The third movie was still one of the most successful movies of all time.
daveguy 3y ago
I don't think "Best Original Song" negates the heuristic. Generally when someone talks about "Oscar Worthy" they are generally considering the original categories or even just best picture, director, actress, actor, etc. Maybe best original screen play added in 1940. Not to diminish the performers or writers of the Best Original Song, it's still an awesome achievement. Just more personal than something like Best Picture.
- jdminhbg 3y ago
  Yes, I agree. Put another way: It's hard for a movie with the best director or best screenplay to be a bad movie, but it's very easy for a movie with a great original song to otherwise be terrible.
  - daveguy 3y ago
    Much better said. Thank you.
colordrops 3y ago
It's more than two dimensions. For instance, The Last Jedi measure doesn't take into account Disney extorting and/or paying off critics to boost the movie.
alonsonic 3y ago
TLJ: from a technical film POV this movie was actually great. Strong cinematography, interesting twists in the script and overall good acting and pacing. The issue is that it was a very bad "star wars" movie. A lot of fans felt it didn't do the traditional Star Wars characters and story justice. I agree with both critics and fans. TGS: It didn't win an oscar for best song, it was nominated. Regardless of that, best song is not usually considered a top category in the Oscar's from a film critic POV. That would be best movie, director, script, actor/actress.

0x457 3y ago

TLJ was review bombed (movie sucked tho). Critics gave a good score out of fear imo. It's just an outlier for that rule. Oscar worthy - best picture, best actor, etc. Best original song isn't a top tier category. That year also had weak competition. The Greatest Showman was nominated in a single category, and it lost to Coco. I don't know where you got that it won. Coco got nominated in two categories, one of which was important, and won both. Coco also within 3% difference on rotten tomatoes.

paulddraper 3y ago
I'm sorry, you are correct. Nominated not won

bmelton 3y ago

For me, it was after they invited a new batch of reviewers who ended up bumping Citizen Kane from RT's "best movie all time" down a bunch of slots to such an extent that it was outranked by Paddington 2 I still use the ratings (because they're built into Plex) but mostly as a novelty, and sometimes as a puzzlement. Increasingly, you see scores like 5% tomato, 95% audience (or vice versa!) that I'm sure mean _something_ but rarely anything to me.

Blackthorn 3y ago
Paddington 2 is legitimately great though.
enragedcacti 3y ago
I think this is mostly just a misunderstanding of what the RT score means. The scoring falls apart at the edges because its a measure of recommendability*, not a precision measure of quality. Exceptionally good movies (which Paddington 2 is btw) will trend heavily toward 100% and any drop from 100% are from outlier reviewers. Citizen Kane has 1/131 negative reviews and Paddington 2 has 2/253 negative reviews. If you want a rating of quality you can always just click on the score and see that paddington 2 has an 8.7 aggregate compared to Citizen Kane's 9.9. * what percent of viewers will not regret watching the movie. That makes this a combination metric of quality and variance. A low variance 7/10 will beat a high variance 8/10 in RT score
Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
"Paddington 2" is one of the best movies ever made, it is up there with the "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari".
JambalayaJim 3y ago
Both those movies have excellent scores. Does their relative ranking really matter?

dale_glass 3y ago

It sorta fits for TLJ. It's a movie with interesting ideas that break the mold vs the previous movie. I can see how critics might find it more interesting. Compared to TFA it's interesting to think about. But it sucks from the point of view of watching something enjoyable, and especially so if you were looking for a straight follow-up of TFA.

Pxtl 3y ago
I'll always take an interesting failure over a boring success. I thought that TLJ was incredibly uneven, but I wanted a sequel to that far more than a sequel to TFA.
- darkerside 3y ago
  I think it depends how much you care about the source material. If you genuinely love and cherish it, it's hard to want to take risks, even those that might result in a better movie. There was probably some of that going on with the prequels. If you care less about it, then you'll surely want to try new things, and if it doesn't work out, no big deal.
  - Pxtl 3y ago
    Wow. "You obviously don't love Star Wars as much as me if you like The Last Jedi" is a heck of a take.
    - darkerside 3y ago
      Most people who live the works of Beethoven aren't opining that they wish he took more risks in his work. They respect his canon for what it is. Some people are very glad we've moved on to new and different music and that's OK. Some people think it's trash and noise and classical music is real music. And that's ok, too. I don't mean to offend you. I think this is a universal dynamic in a field as subjective as art and entertainment.
    - ShamelessC 3y ago

eindiran 3y ago

I can't comment on "The Greatest Showman" since I haven't seen it, but on a certain level "The Last Jedi" was kind of artsy fartsy; Rian Johnson spent so much time on cinematography and color grading[0] that he ended up with a movie that was visually very striking, without any plot fundamentals that felt like a deep betrayal to the universe. [0] Think space-walrus cliffs, or red-salt Hoth, or lightspeed kamikazee, or the Snoke throne room battle

hyperhopper 3y ago
> without any plot fundamentals that felt like a deep betrayal to the universe. 1. Luke went from the most optimistic and positive Jedi in the world, who found the good in Darth Vader, to a dude who tried to kill his own nephew without any explanation on how he got to that point aside from "I had a bad dream". Pathetic even if you ignore he also had dreams about becoming Darth Vader himself, and overcame those. 2. They completely destroyed any sense of time or speed with their "this turtle is so slow but too fast" race as the main plot point 3. Leia went into outer space unconscious but magically flew back in without dying??? 4. They kept the elderly Leia around, instead of having her do a hero's sendoff at the end. Instead, they killed the only good character that was set up perfectly to be the new cutthroat cunning but likable leader of the rebellion. 5. They ruined every other fight in star wars with the hyperspace joust. Why was any other fight a big deal when they could have just rammed a few ships with jump drives into the star destroyers, or hell, the death star. 6. Rey is somehow the strongest force user now despite no training. Every other Jedi that got to be that strong had a lifetime of training and tribulations, but now Rey can just beat kylo ren, a lifelong trained Jedi Skywalker with the power of the dark side, just because she's a Mary Sue. And this is just what I can remember on my phone while sitting at this bar. If you think this movie wasn't a deep betrayal to the universe, you didn't pay any attention to it.
- the_af 3y ago
  I think the commenter you are replying to is saying it was a deep betrayal, though maybe their wording is not the best.
- khazhoux 3y ago

notJim 3y ago

Ehh, I feel like if you broaden the system slightly, it still works. TLJ: cultural elites liked the whole burning the sacred texts thing, normies hated it. (NB: I only vaguely remember this movie and don't have strong opinions about it, don't crucify me.) The Greatest Showman: I assume "not oscar worthy" meant specifically not "Best Picture" worthy. It's a specific type of movie that wins that award. In any case, just like you append " reddit" to most searches, I recommend appending " letterboxd" to any movie searches. You do kind of have to read the reviews instead of just going by the rating though.

krapp 3y ago
>TLJ: cultural elites liked the whole burning the sacred texts thing, normies hated it. Wouldn't the "cultural elites" in this context be the hardcore Star Wars fans who hated everything about the new trilogy, and Luke's disillusionment arc in particular, and the "normies" be the mainstream fans who really didn't care?
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  Cultural elites is within the context of the broader culture, not the narrow niche of Star Wars. They tend to hate Star Wars because it's wildly successful and popular, but it doesn't have any of the cultural crap that they want. Cultural Elites are the ones who decide what wins Oscars, for example.
- notJim 3y ago
  I think the interesting thing about this comment and the other reply to it is that there are actually several different subgroups of people who all will have different takes on this. I meant cultural elites the way bluefirebrand described it (I'd put it a little differently, but still), but as you say, there is another group that you could call cultural elites as well (though this isn't usually how the term is used) The nice thing about letterboxd is that many different subgroups are represented, so you can find the reviews you vibe with and get a better idea of whether the movie will appeal to subgroup you're a part of. There's probably a pretty decent youtube essay on like the balkanization of culture and also the construction of identity through consumption, and how social media has turbo-charged all this here.

goto11 3y ago

The Last Jedi was incredibly successful. According to Wikipedia is "the highest-grossing film of 2017 and the ninth-highest-grossing film of all time." I have a hard time believing an audience score of 41% accurately reflects the opinions of the actual audience.

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
It was part of a huge franchise, which it severely damaged. Of course people went in to see it. Most didn't like it, but they still paid for a ticket. However, many of them didn't bother watching the next one.
- kevinventullo 3y ago
  Indeed, the trilogy were my favorite movies growing up, and I went to see TLJ on the opening week. Haven’t watched a Star War since.
- mcmoor 3y ago
  Interestingly it may be more accurate to measure performance of a movie by the initial sale of its sequel. I haven't gathered any data but I guess it'll be interesting.
  - goto11 3y ago
    Box office across all three of the sequel trilogy moves. The same is the case for the three movies in the original trilogy btw, so I guess we should conclude that "Return of the Jedi" was the only Star Wars was movie people actually liked, since The Force Awakens is one of the most successful movies of all time? In reality, sequels tend to be less successful than the original, but can expect a certain audience. Since only very successful movies get sequels, sequels are still safer investments than original movies.
- goto11 3y ago
  > many of them didn't bother watching the next one. The third movie was still one of the most successful movies of all time.

daveguy 3y ago

I don't think "Best Original Song" negates the heuristic. Generally when someone talks about "Oscar Worthy" they are generally considering the original categories or even just best picture, director, actress, actor, etc. Maybe best original screen play added in 1940. Not to diminish the performers or writers of the Best Original Song, it's still an awesome achievement. Just more personal than something like Best Picture.

jdminhbg 3y ago
Yes, I agree. Put another way: It's hard for a movie with the best director or best screenplay to be a bad movie, but it's very easy for a movie with a great original song to otherwise be terrible.
- daveguy 3y ago
  Much better said. Thank you.

colordrops 3y ago

It's more than two dimensions. For instance, The Last Jedi measure doesn't take into account Disney extorting and/or paying off critics to boost the movie.

alonsonic 3y ago

TLJ: from a technical film POV this movie was actually great. Strong cinematography, interesting twists in the script and overall good acting and pacing. The issue is that it was a very bad "star wars" movie. A lot of fans felt it didn't do the traditional Star Wars characters and story justice. I agree with both critics and fans. TGS: It didn't win an oscar for best song, it was nominated. Regardless of that, best song is not usually considered a top category in the Oscar's from a film critic POV. That would be best movie, director, script, actor/actress.