4 ms·

As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems in

by 0xfae 3y ago

As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems insane to me. I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. The wikipedia article states the "Taarof is a ritual politeness that levels the playing field and promotes equality in a hierarchical culture" but the expectation that you repeatedly say no to something that is being offered and that you want out of social nicety seems nonsensical, and I don't see how it promotes equality. Can someone shed some light on this?

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
If things are regularly being offered with the expectation that they'll be declined, or declined in expectation that they'll be eventually accepted, it allows for wiggle room where somebody can choose to break the social expectation, in effect burning some of their reputation in exchange for fulfilling a short-term need.
- 0xfae 3y ago
  Fascinating. There are rules of the social game that people usually follow, but can be subverted in a move that cashes in reputation or "social capital" for a short term gain. If you do it too often, you lose favor and people will stop offering you things repeatedly, and you are expected to pick up on the social cues. I can see how that creates more social wiggle room than a strict set of rules that everyone is expected to always follow.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    Reputation (or "Gift") economies are fascinating things, and a neat look into pre-(and maybe post-?)money society. In some ways, the analogy to currency holds: If you do a favor for me, I'm more likely to do a favor for you, there's a baked in "inflation" in that reputation decays over time. But in a lot of important ways, it differs: Me doing a favor for someone actually can make me more likely to do a future favor for them, versus no exchange taking place at all, depending on our level of rapport and the size of the favor. Reputation also rewards things that no-one would bother to quantify under currency economies: small favors, being enjoyable company, loyalty. Reputation is also aggressively local: just because Alice thinks very highly of me, it doesn't mean that Bob is more likely to help me, unless he and Alice have some kind of relationship, in which case I'd be leveraging not only what little rapport I have with Bob, but also my rapport with Alice, and Alice's rapport with Bob. This is a main weakness of such systems, because currency lets you deal with people you've never met before just as easily as your local barber. That leads to the necessity of strong hospitality cultures, because outsiders otherwise have no access to resources at all. From a modeling perspective, currency lives in the nodes of a graph: Alice has some money, Bob has some money, I have some money. Reputation, in contrast, lives on the edges: I have rapport with Bob and Alice, Bob has rapport with Alice and I, etc. On tangentially related note, it's been a bug-bear of mine that primary education history lessons always present barter as the premonetary economic system. This is absurd on its face: if Bob is a brilliant cobbler, and I'm a farmer with shoes that regularly need repairs, I'm not going to break down into whole negotiation of how many bushels of wheat or worse yet something more perishable like vegetables from my garden a new shoe sole costs, and how I'm going to save up and store enough for when my shoes need a fix. I'm going to build a reputation with Bob, by sharing with him excess from my garden, and in exchange he'll be willing to fix up my shoes when needed. Straight-up "I'll give you 4 chickens for a coat" barter is very rarely observed in societies before the introduction of currency.
    - mr_toad 3y ago
      Direct barter of the thing you produce for the thing they produce is of course difficult and inefficient. But barter in pre monetary cultures often involved the exchange of a third commodity that was commonly traded - things like salt, spices, alcohol, oil, copper and silver. Things that were in high demand and were non-perishable. Coins developed as standardised units of the precious metals that were already being exchanged.
    - mcmoor 3y ago
      Yeah the main reason why our systems are getting increasingly depersonalized is because we have to deal with more and more complete strangers than before. Marvel of modern interactions is that we can trust (somewhat) this current trading partner despite never meeting this person and will never again. At the cost of distancing ourselves from people close to us.
xkcd-sucks 3y ago
Just a guess, but maybe it allows poor people to extend offers of hospitality they can't possibly fulfill and thereby save some face?
varjag 3y ago
Gift cultures (as subset of honor cultures in general) are there to build a cobweb of mutual favours that cement the society. An important function in the absence of modern rule of law.
burnished 3y ago
The bit that I'm reflecting on is if you are used to it then you know you have an out - just offer/decline a few more times. As opposed to I guess an ask culture perspective where the presumed reason for the repeat asks is that they are trying to wear you down and your outs are basically capitulation or escalation. I'm also reflecting on the times where I've changed my mind during repeat offers, basically because it gave me enough time to think. No conclusions on your question, just ruminations from some one who wonders the same.
RetroTechie 3y ago
> I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. Second that. Just asking takes out the guesswork, and helps to avoid misunderstandings. Feels like a more efficient way to communicate. But I do prefer to minimize annoying others. For example by learning some of the culture of people you're dealing with, context of the subject matter, etc. Most people will appreciate if you show to 'have done your homework'. Kind of like RTFM before asking on a forum. You're more likely to get a helpful response if they see you read the relevant section of the manual, and tried x or y, but something remains unclear. Versus "I'm lazy & need this fixed, plz help". But I think it depends on how well you're tuned into the culture of some group (call it the in-crowd). If you're like a Zen master of that group's way of doing things, and many exchanges have been made between members of that group & yourself, then with a request you know who to ask, how to ask, and likely meet willingness from the other side. But if you're clueless.. then better give a hint to that fact, and ask explicit questions that don't leave room for misunderstanding. "Those who ask may be a fool for one day. But those who don't ask, may remain a fool forever".
mikepurvis 3y ago
Absolutely. I’m from a big family that is ask culture both by necessity and temperament and relating to families that are guess-based is just so exhausting, in both directions.

by 0xfae 3y ago

OkayPhysicist 3y ago

If things are regularly being offered with the expectation that they'll be declined, or declined in expectation that they'll be eventually accepted, it allows for wiggle room where somebody can choose to break the social expectation, in effect burning some of their reputation in exchange for fulfilling a short-term need.

0xfae 3y ago
Fascinating. There are rules of the social game that people usually follow, but can be subverted in a move that cashes in reputation or "social capital" for a short term gain. If you do it too often, you lose favor and people will stop offering you things repeatedly, and you are expected to pick up on the social cues. I can see how that creates more social wiggle room than a strict set of rules that everyone is expected to always follow.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Reputation (or "Gift") economies are fascinating things, and a neat look into pre-(and maybe post-?)money society. In some ways, the analogy to currency holds: If you do a favor for me, I'm more likely to do a favor for you, there's a baked in "inflation" in that reputation decays over time. But in a lot of important ways, it differs: Me doing a favor for someone actually can make me more likely to do a future favor for them, versus no exchange taking place at all, depending on our level of rapport and the size of the favor. Reputation also rewards things that no-one would bother to quantify under currency economies: small favors, being enjoyable company, loyalty. Reputation is also aggressively local: just because Alice thinks very highly of me, it doesn't mean that Bob is more likely to help me, unless he and Alice have some kind of relationship, in which case I'd be leveraging not only what little rapport I have with Bob, but also my rapport with Alice, and Alice's rapport with Bob. This is a main weakness of such systems, because currency lets you deal with people you've never met before just as easily as your local barber. That leads to the necessity of strong hospitality cultures, because outsiders otherwise have no access to resources at all. From a modeling perspective, currency lives in the nodes of a graph: Alice has some money, Bob has some money, I have some money. Reputation, in contrast, lives on the edges: I have rapport with Bob and Alice, Bob has rapport with Alice and I, etc. On tangentially related note, it's been a bug-bear of mine that primary education history lessons always present barter as the premonetary economic system. This is absurd on its face: if Bob is a brilliant cobbler, and I'm a farmer with shoes that regularly need repairs, I'm not going to break down into whole negotiation of how many bushels of wheat or worse yet something more perishable like vegetables from my garden a new shoe sole costs, and how I'm going to save up and store enough for when my shoes need a fix. I'm going to build a reputation with Bob, by sharing with him excess from my garden, and in exchange he'll be willing to fix up my shoes when needed. Straight-up "I'll give you 4 chickens for a coat" barter is very rarely observed in societies before the introduction of currency.
  - mr_toad 3y ago
    Direct barter of the thing you produce for the thing they produce is of course difficult and inefficient. But barter in pre monetary cultures often involved the exchange of a third commodity that was commonly traded - things like salt, spices, alcohol, oil, copper and silver. Things that were in high demand and were non-perishable. Coins developed as standardised units of the precious metals that were already being exchanged.
  - mcmoor 3y ago
    Yeah the main reason why our systems are getting increasingly depersonalized is because we have to deal with more and more complete strangers than before. Marvel of modern interactions is that we can trust (somewhat) this current trading partner despite never meeting this person and will never again. At the cost of distancing ourselves from people close to us.

xkcd-sucks 3y ago

Just a guess, but maybe it allows poor people to extend offers of hospitality they can't possibly fulfill and thereby save some face?

varjag 3y ago

Gift cultures (as subset of honor cultures in general) are there to build a cobweb of mutual favours that cement the society. An important function in the absence of modern rule of law.

burnished 3y ago

The bit that I'm reflecting on is if you are used to it then you know you have an out - just offer/decline a few more times. As opposed to I guess an ask culture perspective where the presumed reason for the repeat asks is that they are trying to wear you down and your outs are basically capitulation or escalation. I'm also reflecting on the times where I've changed my mind during repeat offers, basically because it gave me enough time to think. No conclusions on your question, just ruminations from some one who wonders the same.

RetroTechie 3y ago

> I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc. Second that. Just asking takes out the guesswork, and helps to avoid misunderstandings. Feels like a more efficient way to communicate. But I do prefer to minimize annoying others. For example by learning some of the culture of people you're dealing with, context of the subject matter, etc. Most people will appreciate if you show to 'have done your homework'. Kind of like RTFM before asking on a forum. You're more likely to get a helpful response if they see you read the relevant section of the manual, and tried x or y, but something remains unclear. Versus "I'm lazy & need this fixed, plz help". But I think it depends on how well you're tuned into the culture of some group (call it the in-crowd). If you're like a Zen master of that group's way of doing things, and many exchanges have been made between members of that group & yourself, then with a request you know who to ask, how to ask, and likely meet willingness from the other side. But if you're clueless.. then better give a hint to that fact, and ask explicit questions that don't leave room for misunderstanding. "Those who ask may be a fool for one day. But those who don't ask, may remain a fool forever".

mikepurvis 3y ago

Absolutely. I’m from a big family that is ask culture both by necessity and temperament and relating to families that are guess-based is just so exhausting, in both directions.