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Does anyone know why synchrotron light sources didn't/don't work out for EUV generation? Certainly they seem affordable at fab scale (which is mind-blowing in a

Does anyone know why synchrotron light sources didn't/don't work out for EUV generation? Certainly they seem affordable at fab scale (which is mind-blowing in and of itself) so there must be some other reason.

Animats 3y ago
Not sure. As an experiment, part of the Stanford Linear Accelerator was used to expose some wafers. It worked. Design paper from China on a synchrotron ring for EUV.[1] Note lack of info about ring dimensions. But it looks like hundreds of meters, at least. I think it's been tried with a large research synchrotron ring. But for now, apparently building a synchrotron is even more expensive than those AMSL nightmares. Any news on progress from the VCs? If someone can make this work cost-effectively it will be very profitable. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-07323-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-07323-z
- techdragon 3y ago
  That’s it in a nutshell. The current cost of a Synchrotron is more then the cost of the equivalent capability using non-synchrotron technologies. It might seem crazy but it turns out Synchrotrons are pretty rare machines too… and they are less “operationalised” in an industrial sense than the crazy tech inside the EUV machines… between the vacuum levels needed and the various linear or circular accelerator technologies available, at the end of the day it’s just way more of a pain in the ass to maintain a large industrially pure vacuum machine operating at continuous round the clock fashion. which might seem nuts but talk to anyone who’s works with high vacuum systems about vacuum purity, out gassing and contamination and yeah… it will make sense pretty quickly.
  - exmadscientist 3y ago
    I don't think high vacuum is the main problem. I used to work closely with people who did serious high vacuum heavy lifting (with RHIC at Brookhaven) and they always gave off the impression that it's plenty difficult, but it's engineering-project difficult, not research-project difficult. There are solutions, they are understood, and they work at scale. Though they might not be pretty. No, I'm guessing it's something else. I can't imagine complexity is the issue, given the nightmare that is the ASML scanner, so I can only guess that some property of the light generated by synchrotrons is troublesome and not easily correctable. If that's not the case... perhaps there really might be a business opportunity here?
- dirtyid 3y ago
  >like hundreds of meters IIRC Tsinghua SSMB ring design has circumference of ~140m for kW EUV light source. My understanding, at least how SSMB was/is being sold is: storage ring technology mature, price per tool / light source will be relative low. E: tsinghua ssmb update from last year https://conference-indico.kek.jp/event/160/contributions/2876/attachments/2148/2699/Zhilong_Pan.pdf https://conference-indico.kek.jp/event/160/contributions/287...

Animats 3y ago

Not sure. As an experiment, part of the Stanford Linear Accelerator was used to expose some wafers. It worked. Design paper from China on a synchrotron ring for EUV.[1] Note lack of info about ring dimensions. But it looks like hundreds of meters, at least. I think it's been tried with a large research synchrotron ring. But for now, apparently building a synchrotron is even more expensive than those AMSL nightmares. Any news on progress from the VCs? If someone can make this work cost-effectively it will be very profitable. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-07323-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-07323-z

techdragon 3y ago
That’s it in a nutshell. The current cost of a Synchrotron is more then the cost of the equivalent capability using non-synchrotron technologies. It might seem crazy but it turns out Synchrotrons are pretty rare machines too… and they are less “operationalised” in an industrial sense than the crazy tech inside the EUV machines… between the vacuum levels needed and the various linear or circular accelerator technologies available, at the end of the day it’s just way more of a pain in the ass to maintain a large industrially pure vacuum machine operating at continuous round the clock fashion. which might seem nuts but talk to anyone who’s works with high vacuum systems about vacuum purity, out gassing and contamination and yeah… it will make sense pretty quickly.
- exmadscientist 3y ago
  I don't think high vacuum is the main problem. I used to work closely with people who did serious high vacuum heavy lifting (with RHIC at Brookhaven) and they always gave off the impression that it's plenty difficult, but it's engineering-project difficult, not research-project difficult. There are solutions, they are understood, and they work at scale. Though they might not be pretty. No, I'm guessing it's something else. I can't imagine complexity is the issue, given the nightmare that is the ASML scanner, so I can only guess that some property of the light generated by synchrotrons is troublesome and not easily correctable. If that's not the case... perhaps there really might be a business opportunity here?
dirtyid 3y ago
>like hundreds of meters IIRC Tsinghua SSMB ring design has circumference of ~140m for kW EUV light source. My understanding, at least how SSMB was/is being sold is: storage ring technology mature, price per tool / light source will be relative low. E: tsinghua ssmb update from last year https://conference-indico.kek.jp/event/160/contributions/2876/attachments/2148/2699/Zhilong_Pan.pdf https://conference-indico.kek.jp/event/160/contributions/287...