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‘Occupied by the US’: wildfires renew Native Hawaiian call for sovereignty

32 points by gardenfelder 3y ago

gardenfelder 3y ago
>As disaster capitalists descend on Lahaina, Indigenous Hawaiians fight for self-governance
h2odragon 3y ago
People have made jokes that Maui would've gotten more Federal aid if it had been a foreign country. Others have said that those people were spreading divisive Russian disinformation. People have every right to be upset with their governments in this, at all levels. The "highway of death" photos demand answers from local government officials, just to name one example.
mc32 3y ago
Sadly, if they secede from the US, foreign capital will still dictate what goes on over there, be it American, Chinese, Japanese or Aussie capital. Their economy is mostly based on tourism --agriculture is small and I don't think becoming a socialist paradise is viable. Anyhoo, Lahaina people and East Palestine people have received the short shrift from the gov.
- pb7 3y ago
  There is zero chance Hawaii will be allowed to secede ever. It’s one of the US’s most important military outposts, especially as tensions with China rise.
  - kyboren 3y ago
    Agreed. The Hawaiian islands occupy an incredibly strategic position. If Hawaii did somehow secede, they would be utterly unable to defend their sovereignty over the long term. Some sort of suzerain power arrangement with the US, where the US retains control over foreign policy and responsibility for military defense but the Hawaiian islands are otherwise independent, would make far more sense. Still, that would also come with serious costs, and US statehood already gives them substantial independence and far more power to direct resources to the islands. I think Hawaiians already have the best deal possible--not perfect, but better than all the alternatives.
    - gremlinsinc 3y ago
      Like an Indian reservation? That's what I think would be the best compromise.
    - devilbunny 3y ago
      I had some similar conversations with a few Hawaiian natives while there. In short: you guys had the only good harbor for thousands of miles in any direction, directly on the Asian-North American route. Yes, your islands were flat-out stolen and then systematically raped for resources while your culture was turned into tchotchkes. But you weren't going to be left alone no matter what, so it becomes a matter of who you would rather be ruled by.
_chu1 3y ago
The US government has already decided another $8 billion to Ukraine is more important than helping those in midst of a disaster (See East Palestine)
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  This was civilian Ukraine yesterday... (nsfw) https://t.me/espresotb/73104 https://t.me/espresotb/73104 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-blinken-counteroffensive-6c1545768d77d927a5cda148fc197e3c https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-blinken-counte...
  - _chu1 3y ago
    I live in the US. Sad but not my problem.
- V__ 3y ago
  Hawaii has received and will continue to receive relief. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/08/30/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administrations-latest-actions-to-support-communities-impacted-by-maui-wildfires-4/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...
  - h2odragon 3y ago
    > More than 1,000 Federal personnel are on the ground on Maui to aid response efforts How many personnel are dedicated to Ukraine efforts, I wonder? Honestly not denigrating any efforts anyone is undertaking. Its a natural comparison to make, tho. There could have been troops there cleaning up within hours. There could have been troops there fighting fires when populations were threatened. The Navy in particular has some assets not far from there.
    - V__ 3y ago
      > the Coast Guard and Navy are supporting response and rescue efforts, while the Marines are providing Black Hawk helicopters to fight the fires. [1] https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2023/08/09/coast-guard-rescues-people-trying-to-escape-hawaii-wildfires/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2023/08/09/coast-gu... I understand the impulse to make these comparisons, but it's apple to oranges. 1000 CIA analysts and artilary shells won't help Hawaii. I'm sure more could have been done, but pretending it's nothing also won't help anybody.
GenericDev 3y ago
[flagged]
- g42gregory 3y ago
  While I sympathize with the sentiment, how would this "sovereignty" for Hawaii look like? As far as I could tell, their economy could not function on its own. Go back to hundreds of years ago with no hospitals, etc? Would population appreciate that? With large military bases present, it's a moot point anyway. If a country of Germany's size is not able to function as a sovereign country, what chances Hawaii has?
  - krapp 3y ago
    Maybe, but it shouldn't be up to the colonizers to determine that on their behalf. If sovereignty leaves them an economic wasteland then maybe they could join the US voluntarily, rather than through a coup organized by a cabal of fruit companies.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    Something like Indian reservations in America? Still sovereign but still a state?
    - dogma1138 3y ago
      It doesn’t seem that the reservation model works well at least not when it comes to the welfare of its residents.
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  Hawaii without the backing of the United States will be a poor and corrupt hellhole. They need the US more than the US needs them.
  - Kon-Peki 3y ago
    Hawaii's problems are mostly self-inflicted. The corrupt and incompetent ruling class encourages all the talk about sovereignty and blaming everything on haoles to prevent anyone from looking too closely at the people that are elected by and for those actually living in Hawaii. Nobody on the mainland can prevent them from reforming their system of taxation which makes it nearly free to be an absentee landowner while putting almost the entire burden on people living and working on the islands. Will they? Don't hold your breath.
ls612 3y ago
As I recall we established a precedent about whether states could leave the union about 160 years ago.
- BillSaysThis 3y ago
  I would argue that we settled a precedent that states could choose to leave unilaterally, not that they could leave at all.
- askin4it 3y ago
  A "precedent"....nice.
wcarron 3y ago
Never gonna happen. The US gov't will never willingly cede control of all the testing and missile ranges and the economic/military power projecion the islands provide it. Frankly, from a realpolitik standpoint, I would be supremely annoyed at the government if it were to allow secession. It's really too valuable of a landmass to let go. Doing so would drastically alter the pacific theater as china continues a military buildup, threatens Taiwan, and manufactures islands in the south china sea.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  That's the answer right there: make the deal that they leave but the US maintains a military base. Problem solved.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    couldn't maybe carving out the military parts and making the rest one huge reservation work? residents can retain dual citizenship, or however native Americans do things.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
I was going to be all negative about a free Hawaii. Then I read how it got made a state by some corporate fatcats overthrowing the queen by force, establishing a kangaroo government over the objection of the American President, and petitioning for years to be admitted as a state. No native Hawaiian ever agreed to this. They were discriminated against from the outset, systematically. Don't know how it could be untangled now. Like Scotland, not sure modern natives would care about century-old political screwing around.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  I don't think it should be totally annexed because that changes electoral college issues, but the whole state should be transitioned to a reservation like an Indian reservation. Retain statehood, but also their sovereignty.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    Oooor ... just ask them what they want to do. They're standing right there.
pvaldes 3y ago
boycotters and agitators are really busy this year.
mimd 3y ago
The guardian is supporting the creation of an ethno nationalist state of a tiny minority? Wonder what will happen to the vast majority of Hawaiians who don't meet "blood" requirements...

32 points by gardenfelder 3y ago

>As disaster capitalists descend on Lahaina, Indigenous Hawaiians fight for self-governance

People have made jokes that Maui would've gotten more Federal aid if it had been a foreign country. Others have said that those people were spreading divisive Russian disinformation. People have every right to be upset with their governments in this, at all levels. The "highway of death" photos demand answers from local government officials, just to name one example.

mc32 3y ago

Sadly, if they secede from the US, foreign capital will still dictate what goes on over there, be it American, Chinese, Japanese or Aussie capital. Their economy is mostly based on tourism --agriculture is small and I don't think becoming a socialist paradise is viable. Anyhoo, Lahaina people and East Palestine people have received the short shrift from the gov.

pb7 3y ago
There is zero chance Hawaii will be allowed to secede ever. It’s one of the US’s most important military outposts, especially as tensions with China rise.
- kyboren 3y ago
  Agreed. The Hawaiian islands occupy an incredibly strategic position. If Hawaii did somehow secede, they would be utterly unable to defend their sovereignty over the long term. Some sort of suzerain power arrangement with the US, where the US retains control over foreign policy and responsibility for military defense but the Hawaiian islands are otherwise independent, would make far more sense. Still, that would also come with serious costs, and US statehood already gives them substantial independence and far more power to direct resources to the islands. I think Hawaiians already have the best deal possible--not perfect, but better than all the alternatives.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    Like an Indian reservation? That's what I think would be the best compromise.
  - devilbunny 3y ago
    I had some similar conversations with a few Hawaiian natives while there. In short: you guys had the only good harbor for thousands of miles in any direction, directly on the Asian-North American route. Yes, your islands were flat-out stolen and then systematically raped for resources while your culture was turned into tchotchkes. But you weren't going to be left alone no matter what, so it becomes a matter of who you would rather be ruled by.

_chu1 3y ago

The US government has already decided another $8 billion to Ukraine is more important than helping those in midst of a disaster (See East Palestine)

reducesuffering 3y ago
This was civilian Ukraine yesterday... (nsfw) https://t.me/espresotb/73104 https://t.me/espresotb/73104 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-blinken-counteroffensive-6c1545768d77d927a5cda148fc197e3c https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-blinken-counte...
- _chu1 3y ago
  I live in the US. Sad but not my problem.
V__ 3y ago
Hawaii has received and will continue to receive relief. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/08/30/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administrations-latest-actions-to-support-communities-impacted-by-maui-wildfires-4/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...
- h2odragon 3y ago
  > More than 1,000 Federal personnel are on the ground on Maui to aid response efforts How many personnel are dedicated to Ukraine efforts, I wonder? Honestly not denigrating any efforts anyone is undertaking. Its a natural comparison to make, tho. There could have been troops there cleaning up within hours. There could have been troops there fighting fires when populations were threatened. The Navy in particular has some assets not far from there.
  - V__ 3y ago
    > the Coast Guard and Navy are supporting response and rescue efforts, while the Marines are providing Black Hawk helicopters to fight the fires. [1] https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2023/08/09/coast-guard-rescues-people-trying-to-escape-hawaii-wildfires/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2023/08/09/coast-gu... I understand the impulse to make these comparisons, but it's apple to oranges. 1000 CIA analysts and artilary shells won't help Hawaii. I'm sure more could have been done, but pretending it's nothing also won't help anybody.

GenericDev 3y ago

[flagged]

g42gregory 3y ago
While I sympathize with the sentiment, how would this "sovereignty" for Hawaii look like? As far as I could tell, their economy could not function on its own. Go back to hundreds of years ago with no hospitals, etc? Would population appreciate that? With large military bases present, it's a moot point anyway. If a country of Germany's size is not able to function as a sovereign country, what chances Hawaii has?
- krapp 3y ago
  Maybe, but it shouldn't be up to the colonizers to determine that on their behalf. If sovereignty leaves them an economic wasteland then maybe they could join the US voluntarily, rather than through a coup organized by a cabal of fruit companies.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  Something like Indian reservations in America? Still sovereign but still a state?
  - dogma1138 3y ago
    It doesn’t seem that the reservation model works well at least not when it comes to the welfare of its residents.
boeingUH60 3y ago
Hawaii without the backing of the United States will be a poor and corrupt hellhole. They need the US more than the US needs them.
- Kon-Peki 3y ago
  Hawaii's problems are mostly self-inflicted. The corrupt and incompetent ruling class encourages all the talk about sovereignty and blaming everything on haoles to prevent anyone from looking too closely at the people that are elected by and for those actually living in Hawaii. Nobody on the mainland can prevent them from reforming their system of taxation which makes it nearly free to be an absentee landowner while putting almost the entire burden on people living and working on the islands. Will they? Don't hold your breath.

ls612 3y ago

As I recall we established a precedent about whether states could leave the union about 160 years ago.

BillSaysThis 3y ago
I would argue that we settled a precedent that states could choose to leave unilaterally, not that they could leave at all.
askin4it 3y ago
A "precedent"....nice.

wcarron 3y ago

Never gonna happen. The US gov't will never willingly cede control of all the testing and missile ranges and the economic/military power projecion the islands provide it. Frankly, from a realpolitik standpoint, I would be supremely annoyed at the government if it were to allow secession. It's really too valuable of a landmass to let go. Doing so would drastically alter the pacific theater as china continues a military buildup, threatens Taiwan, and manufactures islands in the south china sea.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
That's the answer right there: make the deal that they leave but the US maintains a military base. Problem solved.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  couldn't maybe carving out the military parts and making the rest one huge reservation work? residents can retain dual citizenship, or however native Americans do things.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago

I was going to be all negative about a free Hawaii. Then I read how it got made a state by some corporate fatcats overthrowing the queen by force, establishing a kangaroo government over the objection of the American President, and petitioning for years to be admitted as a state. No native Hawaiian ever agreed to this. They were discriminated against from the outset, systematically. Don't know how it could be untangled now. Like Scotland, not sure modern natives would care about century-old political screwing around.

gremlinsinc 3y ago
I don't think it should be totally annexed because that changes electoral college issues, but the whole state should be transitioned to a reservation like an Indian reservation. Retain statehood, but also their sovereignty.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Oooor ... just ask them what they want to do. They're standing right there.

pvaldes 3y ago

boycotters and agitators are really busy this year.

mimd 3y ago

The guardian is supporting the creation of an ethno nationalist state of a tiny minority? Wonder what will happen to the vast majority of Hawaiians who don't meet "blood" requirements...