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Color me skeptical. A single organic cotton bag requires 20,000 uses due to ozone depletion? Apparently the researchers chose one specific dataset to determine

Color me skeptical. A single organic cotton bag requires 20,000 uses due to ozone depletion? Apparently the researchers chose one specific dataset to determine how much electricity is used for cotton irrigation, and then further assumed that all of that electricity is generated from burning natural gas. It's not the gas itself that depletes ozone at that rate, but rather two chemicals used to pipe and transport methane long distances, which escape from leaky pipe infrastructure. Gee whiz, isn't cotton terrible? [0] If we looked at each one of the metrics, both for single use plastics and for their alternatives, would we find a similar story of absolute best/worst case scenario to paint single-use plastics as environmentally friendly? The original article also notes that plastics industry groups jumped on the pandemic to write to regulators and grocers imploring them to ban re-usable shopping bags due to them being "virus-laden" cesspools. Which is not at all what the science suggests (we figured that one out pretty early in the pandemic as I recall). These people are interested in one thing only: getting as much plastic into consumer markets as humanly possible. They are not operating in good faith by any stretch. [0] https://www.metabolic.nl/news/are-organic-cotton-totes-really-worse-than-plastic-bags https://www.metabolic.nl/news/are-organic-cotton-totes-reall...

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
> due to them being "virus-laden" cesspools I usually bring my backpack or a duffel bag to purchase groceries or whatever, and the cashiers are absolutely uniformly grossed out by these bags. They will hardly touch them. They poke at a hem as if it were radioactive or something. Of course, this started around the time of the pandemic, when everyone was extra paranoid about germs. But it has not abated. Nobody will bag groceries into my personal bags, they just kind of shove it to the end and make me do it all myself.
- InSteady 3y ago
  That seems reasonable on their end. I bag my own bags when I bring them from home, always have done so without asking (even before the pandemic).
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    It seems reasonable to be grossed out by a fabric bag? One that's empty, clean, smells normal, in excellent condition, that I launder on the regular, and nobody but me uses it? I mean, you do know what those cashiers touch all day? Raw, unwashed produce, packages dripping liquids, boxes and cans that gathered dust on the shelf for 4 months, items that have been handled by N dozen customers and employees recently? I suppose it's reasonable to treat a person's personal bag with suspicion, but I feel sort of insulted. Perhaps I'm not rational to be so insulted by this attitude, but they could at least pretend to be OK, for PR sake.
    - pixxel 3y ago
      People don’t want to touch your duffel bag. It’s your duffel bag. You can’t force people to touch your duffel bag.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        > People don’t want to touch your duffel bag. Then those people shall furnish single-use bags that are fit for purpose, rather than (1) forcing me to bring stuff from home (2) bagging my own stuff, when we pay bag boys to perform this skilled service for us. Fair enough? This whole rigmarole is just another way for climate alarmists to shame the consumer and foist responsibility upon us to shell out for worthless bags that would otherwise be free. Face it, this is just another capitalist-fascist moneymaking scheme, and we're collateral damage.
        namdnay 3y ago
        Bagging your own shopping? The horror, the horror!
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        I'm not sure why it's horrible; like I said, bagging groceries is a skilled task, and I've seen employees who are really, really good at it, and fast too. In a not too distant past, grocery stores employed people who rang up our purchases and they also employed people who bagged groceries. These openings were beneficial to the job market. In fact, grocery stores have traditionally presented a lot of opportunity to people who are developmentally disabled, and I really appreciate that. Now if groceries want to fire those cashiers and fire those bag boys and offload the labor onto the consumer, then I am sure they will be happy to pay us double wages and/or pass the cost savings on to us in the form of lower prices across the board. Unless they simply want to ramp up their paranoia, surveillance tracking, and accusations of shoplifting at the self-checkout, especially when we dare to use our own goddamn filthy bags, what do you think?
gruez 3y ago
>If we looked at each one of the metrics, both for single use plastics and for their alternatives, would we find a similar story of absolute best/worst case scenario to paint single-use plastics as environmentally friendly? The report has been out for over 5 years. I think that's enough time for people to analyze it and point out specific methodological flaws, and we should not have to rely on "there's one methodological flaw so let's assume the whole report is wrong". >The original article also notes that plastics industry groups jumped on the pandemic to write to regulators and grocers imploring them to ban re-usable shopping bags due to them being "virus-laden" cesspools. Which is not at all what the science suggests (we figured that one out pretty early in the pandemic as I recall). 1. when did this happen? 2. In 2022-2023 I was still seeing supermarkets with cart disinfection stations, and hand sanitizer dispensers sprinkled in every public space. Clearly plenty of people missed the memo.
- InSteady 3y ago
  You may see it as just one methodological flaw but I see it differently. It is an absurd degree of worst case scenario. I would be surprised if the only metric I happened to look into also happened to be the only one with glaring bias injected into it, but I wouldn't lose my mind or anything if that just happened to be the case. At least we have that context now, so we can do with it as we please. I don't have an exact timeframe for when surface contact was determined to be a much lower risk vector, but I seem to recall that info coming out within the first few months (early to mid spring) after the virus hit the US. At the beginning of the pandemic people were quarantining all of their groceries and/or wiping every single package down with sterilizing solution. Then we learned that the virus is not terribly transmissible from surface contact, the major risk by far is via particulates, and basically everyone stopped doing that. Of course basic hygiene is still encouraged. Sanitizing stations for carts is just a good idea in general, I hope that option never goes away. And given how bad the average person is at washing their hands on a consistent basis, I'll take the wide availability of hand sanitizer as a win for every single communicable disease (many of which are vastly more transmissible than Covid via surface contact). Like all Covid safety measures, at this point if bags freak you out then don't touch other people's bags.
  - 3y ago

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

> due to them being "virus-laden" cesspools I usually bring my backpack or a duffel bag to purchase groceries or whatever, and the cashiers are absolutely uniformly grossed out by these bags. They will hardly touch them. They poke at a hem as if it were radioactive or something. Of course, this started around the time of the pandemic, when everyone was extra paranoid about germs. But it has not abated. Nobody will bag groceries into my personal bags, they just kind of shove it to the end and make me do it all myself.

InSteady 3y ago
That seems reasonable on their end. I bag my own bags when I bring them from home, always have done so without asking (even before the pandemic).
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  It seems reasonable to be grossed out by a fabric bag? One that's empty, clean, smells normal, in excellent condition, that I launder on the regular, and nobody but me uses it? I mean, you do know what those cashiers touch all day? Raw, unwashed produce, packages dripping liquids, boxes and cans that gathered dust on the shelf for 4 months, items that have been handled by N dozen customers and employees recently? I suppose it's reasonable to treat a person's personal bag with suspicion, but I feel sort of insulted. Perhaps I'm not rational to be so insulted by this attitude, but they could at least pretend to be OK, for PR sake.
  - pixxel 3y ago
    People don’t want to touch your duffel bag. It’s your duffel bag. You can’t force people to touch your duffel bag.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      > People don’t want to touch your duffel bag. Then those people shall furnish single-use bags that are fit for purpose, rather than (1) forcing me to bring stuff from home (2) bagging my own stuff, when we pay bag boys to perform this skilled service for us. Fair enough? This whole rigmarole is just another way for climate alarmists to shame the consumer and foist responsibility upon us to shell out for worthless bags that would otherwise be free. Face it, this is just another capitalist-fascist moneymaking scheme, and we're collateral damage.
      - namdnay 3y ago
        Bagging your own shopping? The horror, the horror!
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        I'm not sure why it's horrible; like I said, bagging groceries is a skilled task, and I've seen employees who are really, really good at it, and fast too. In a not too distant past, grocery stores employed people who rang up our purchases and they also employed people who bagged groceries. These openings were beneficial to the job market. In fact, grocery stores have traditionally presented a lot of opportunity to people who are developmentally disabled, and I really appreciate that. Now if groceries want to fire those cashiers and fire those bag boys and offload the labor onto the consumer, then I am sure they will be happy to pay us double wages and/or pass the cost savings on to us in the form of lower prices across the board. Unless they simply want to ramp up their paranoia, surveillance tracking, and accusations of shoplifting at the self-checkout, especially when we dare to use our own goddamn filthy bags, what do you think?

gruez 3y ago

>If we looked at each one of the metrics, both for single use plastics and for their alternatives, would we find a similar story of absolute best/worst case scenario to paint single-use plastics as environmentally friendly? The report has been out for over 5 years. I think that's enough time for people to analyze it and point out specific methodological flaws, and we should not have to rely on "there's one methodological flaw so let's assume the whole report is wrong". >The original article also notes that plastics industry groups jumped on the pandemic to write to regulators and grocers imploring them to ban re-usable shopping bags due to them being "virus-laden" cesspools. Which is not at all what the science suggests (we figured that one out pretty early in the pandemic as I recall). 1. when did this happen? 2. In 2022-2023 I was still seeing supermarkets with cart disinfection stations, and hand sanitizer dispensers sprinkled in every public space. Clearly plenty of people missed the memo.

InSteady 3y ago
You may see it as just one methodological flaw but I see it differently. It is an absurd degree of worst case scenario. I would be surprised if the only metric I happened to look into also happened to be the only one with glaring bias injected into it, but I wouldn't lose my mind or anything if that just happened to be the case. At least we have that context now, so we can do with it as we please. I don't have an exact timeframe for when surface contact was determined to be a much lower risk vector, but I seem to recall that info coming out within the first few months (early to mid spring) after the virus hit the US. At the beginning of the pandemic people were quarantining all of their groceries and/or wiping every single package down with sterilizing solution. Then we learned that the virus is not terribly transmissible from surface contact, the major risk by far is via particulates, and basically everyone stopped doing that. Of course basic hygiene is still encouraged. Sanitizing stations for carts is just a good idea in general, I hope that option never goes away. And given how bad the average person is at washing their hands on a consistent basis, I'll take the wide availability of hand sanitizer as a win for every single communicable disease (many of which are vastly more transmissible than Covid via surface contact). Like all Covid safety measures, at this point if bags freak you out then don't touch other people's bags.
- 3y ago