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Ask HN: YC company copied our product, what can we do?
Hi there, a YC company 'pivoted' into copying our product completely, even the API calls. I discovered that, noticing their employees in our Slack Community channel. As a female founder, having my app rejected by YC with this product, it just makes me angry. What can we do, apart from, of course continuing on our mission??
- Jeremy1026 3y agoUnless they stole something proprietary, you don't really have many options beyond doing your product better than them.
- r_thambapillai 3y agoIt sucks, but the only thing to do is kick ass in the field. The more successful you are, the more companies will copy you. We had companies with 30 or even 100 people hard pivot into an exact clone of our company when it was clear we had traction. We just have to keep out executing
- uberman 3y agoI guess this is why VCs don't sign NDAs.
- correa_brian 3y agoJust keep building. Ideas are cheap. Focus on execution.
- badtension 3y agoAnd compete with YCs resources, right...
- muzani 3y agoThe clones copying the product overnight is probably a good hint that they could execute better.
- anigbrowl 3y agoStop talking about it and call a law firm. Your local Bar Association will be able to give you a list of firms/attorneys that practice in this area, or your existing lawyer may have a recommendation. Many law firms will give you a short consultation for free. Bring a succinct written summary of the facts with you that briefly describes the product, how you discovered the issue, and what you found when you investigated, with dates. Include a list of evidence items you have already collected. Litigation is difficult and expensive, but if you have a strong case (and it sounds like you do) then the law firm may take it on contingency in return for a larger portion of the settlement/judgment. EDIT: I wouldn't trust the opinions of the 'just execute better' posters here, considering your competitors' employees already infiltrated your slack channel.
- muzani 3y agoUnless it was patented or the code copied, it's unlikely that it's illegal. But I'm not a lawyer.
- reaperman 3y ago> considering your competitors' employees already infiltrated your slack channel. It was a public community slack channel. There may have been proprietary/protected information shared in there but in my naive opinion (NAL!) that wouldn't be protected by trade secrets if it was shared publicly. Some things could still be protected by copyright or trademark but it's pretty unlikely. It's possible copying the API could be infringing but Google v. Oracle[0] makes that a very uphill battle. "Secret sauce" is highly valued by founders and product managers but IMHO it's generally overvalued and doesn't constitute a moat. For the most part, competitors are allowed to copy most things and leverage whatever other advantages they have over the original innovators. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_....
- anigbrowl 3y agoLitigation is about more than the legal argument alone, and the legal arguments often turn on specific facts that may seem general on casual inspection. Other factors to consider include cost, embarrassing facts that may emerge during discovery, and reputational damage. That's why cases are often settled on the eve of trial, sometimes for significant sums. Getting a professional opinion on the options is generally better than just making assumptions. Copycats and rip-offs are a fact of life, but that doesn't mean they should enjoy free reign. It's not that I think litigation is better than execution, but people exclusively advocating the latter are expressing an opinion about how they think things should work in a perfect world while not having any assets of their own on the line.
- mindcrime 3y agoUnless they literally stole your code, or had access to privileged information from your YC application or something, I doubt there is much you can do. It's not illegal to enter the same business as an existing company, or even to make an app that does the exact same thing. Where it starts to get iffy is when you start talking about people literally copying your HTML/CSS or what-not. Is that the case here? If so, call a lawyer. If not, ignore them and just execute better.
- jacquesm 3y agoMarketing copy and sales documentation is also copyrighted.
- mindcrime 3y agoMarketing copy and sales documentation is also copyrighted. Yes, that's why I said: Where it starts to get iffy is when you start talking about people literally copying your HTML/CSS or what-not. Is that the case here? If so, call a lawyer. where "or what-not" is short-hand for the exhaustive list of "things that can be copied" that I had neither the time not the inclination to list out explicitly.
- jacquesm 3y agoNp, think of it as an enhancement, not in opposition. Your point was very valid. And it's exactly that kind of stuff that won me a lawsuit (15 lines of fairly unique Javascript exploiting a long lived bug in Explorer and Netscape to deliver streaming video to the browser without a plug-in).
- sharkjacobs 3y agoThrow a rock through their window.
- flashgordon 3y agoVery sorry to hear this. Did you have any copyright to the apis or the code? Or even a ToS on your slack channel? IANAL so wouldn't hurt to speak to a lawyer. Also sorry I am not good reading the signals - why would being a female founder make you angrier than a non female founder? Id be angry as F too if a clone of my hard work appeared out of no where!
- reaperman 3y ago> Did you have any copyright to the apis or the code? Any code that's written from scratch is automatically assigned copyright to the creator or their employer at the time of creation. API's are probably considered copyrighted by the courts but getting any kind of remedy for that will be exceedingly difficult after Google vs. Oracle. > Id be angry as F too if a clone of my hard work appeared out of no where! This happens literally all the time. I wouldn't recommend someone be a founder if this upsets them. No half-decent innovation isn't instantly cloned by 10 fly-by-night copycats and multiple large incumbents.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- flashgordon 3y agoYeah if the folks somehow copied code (hacking etc) there may be some grounds. Again this is black belt legal stuff. You beat me to it - especially after that whole GvsO case APIs getting copyright is also very tricky it feels to me. > This happens literally all the time. I wouldn't recommend someone be a founder if this upsets them. No half-decent innovation isn't instantly cloned by 10 fly-by-night copycats and multiple large incumbents. +10 - My only point here I wasnt sure why being a female founder mattered whether you could/should get angry. Getting angry is reasonable - just that what you do next and how you pick yourslef matters.
- ewe 3y agoIt makes me angry because they often claim how much they support FFs and diversity. In reality, it's all BS.
- dtornabene 3y agoIts also pretty telling how quickly this is getting flagged off the front page!
- dang 3y agoUsers flagged it. Mods didn't touch it.
- version_five 3y agoWould you like more of the front page to be people lobbing vague allegations at YC funded companies? The only reason it isn't flagged to death is because they make a point of staying out of YC stuff, it's definitely not front page material.
- bananapub 3y ago[flagged]
- dtornabene 3y agothe idea that this forum "makes a point of staying out of YC stuff" is absurd, aside from the money, this site literally advertises for YC companies, on top of many other examples.
- version_five 3y agoSee some moderator comments here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20%22less%2C%20not%20more%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- dtornabene 3y agoReading these its quite obvious that they do, in fact, moderate on behalf of YC companies, they just proclaim that its "less, not more", which is utterly meaningless without examples or explicit rules and given that dang himself or someone he reports to or reports to him literally edited configs for the webserver so that the referrer headers on urls to asahi linux would evade a soft block, I'm kind of at a loss as to why I should believe them. Its bizarre and embarrassing that people are giving them a charitable read on this.
- btilly 3y agoTalk to a lawyer. Copying your API is possibly a copyright violation. But take the lawyer's advice with the following grain of salt. It is in a lawyer's interest for you to go to court. But the best outcome FOR YOU is almost certainly a negotiated settlement. However your legal threat is the best way to get them to settle. https://www.bhfs.com/insights/alerts-articles/2021/supreme-court-copying-apis-in-software-can-be-fair-use https://www.bhfs.com/insights/alerts-articles/2021/supreme-c...
- jacquesm 3y agoOr to get them to back the fuck off. If for instance they were the recipient of privileged information sent to YC (pure speculation!) then they may well be in trouble.
- danr4 3y agoLooks like the company in question is Rehook.ai https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/rehook-ai https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/rehook-ai
- stuartjohnson12 3y agoI daresay the copy looks much more appealing than the original. A tale as old as time.
- jacquesm 3y agoSo that makes it right? Depending on what they copied it can be anywhere from 'meh' to 'guilty'. What it looks like isn't relevant other than in the context of whether or not it is their original work or not.
- ewe 3y agoYeah, we didn't have YC money for a website designer, unfortunately.
- gwbas1c 3y ago> YC money Last time I looked, YC doesn't invest much in the companies it accepts. But I want to focus on the overall tone that you've taken in this discussion: You're playing the victim. It's hurting your credibility. I assume that you applied to other incubators? That you've tried to pitch other venture capitalists and other sources of funding? Why aren't you getting what you're looking for? Don't assume it's because everyone is sexist! Be honest with yourself!
- stuartjohnson12 3y agoHonestly, just moving to a webflow template would likely do you a world of good for $100 or so
- danenania 3y agoI'm inclined to be sympathetic to the OP, but looking at both products side-by-side, including their API docs, they just seem like two similar but not identical products in the promotions space. https://vouchery.io https://vouchery.io https://rehook.ai https://rehook.ai The APIs look fairly different to me from a brief look through the docs. Apart from both using some resource names like 'Campaigns' and 'Customers' that you'd expect any platform in this space to use, most of the actual endpoints seem to be quite different. Same with the overall set of features. There are some features in common, but also features on both sides that aren't shared. Website design and copy is totally different. It seems like OP is unhappy that a competitor is funded by YC and did competitive research in their public community Slack channel. I get that, but I see no evidence that anything was directly copied. It doesn't seem fair to tarnish the reputation of Rehook's founders without evidence to back it up. It's not wrong or illegal to build a competitor to an existing product.
- doublerebel 3y agoImitation is the sincerest form of flattery. This is just another proof point, you may even be able to use it to raise more capital. Focus on your differentiator/USP and providing the best service to your customers. Any decent and obvious market has copycats and competitors.
- sheepscreek 3y agoThis. By pivoting to your business model, they are lending it validation and doing you a favour. It’s another reason for a VC to invest in your product vs theirs, as you have been at it longer. If you really believe in yourself and your team, work hard to outcompete them. Like many others have said, unless there is something illegal about this, it is fair game.
- jacquesm 3y agoThey got rejected by YC. YC is not an investor in OPs business, they are however investors in that copycat.
- pbiggar 3y agoPresumably they raised money, and will need to raise money again. That means that they have money (it's worthwhile to sue, assuming you can get damages). It also means it's a huge lever: they'll never be able to raise under active litigation, they'll have to tell their board, etc. Now is the time to do this. If they just pivoted, and are literally copying you, they can just pivot to something else. You could even get them to agree to transfer/refer their customers as a settlement. All this assumes they did something illegal. Copyright is the best thing to check: have they literally copied anything (APIs may be legal to copy, see Oracle vs Google).
- Zealotux 3y agoDon’t worry, listen to pg https://x.com/paulg/status/1697761812698034630?s=46 https://x.com/paulg/status/1697761812698034630?s=46 > When people copy you, the best strategy is usually to ignore them. People who copy you are (a) unoriginal and (b) opportunists, and those are both strong predictors of failure. If you wait them out, they'll eventually drop away. /s?
- invalidname 3y agoSome guys in Visicalc, Lotus, Netscape, etc. would have some things to say about this...
- ewe 3y agoYeah, said a guy who invested in them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- scentChicken 3y agoThe real answer is to out execute them. Taking time to do legal action will only waste valuable resources. Ironically the founder worked at Rocket-internet which was notorious for copying successful startups https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/27/wimdu-rocket-internets-airbnb-clone-to-shut-down-this-year-facing-significant-business-challenges/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/27/wimdu-rocket-internets-air...
- constantly 3y ago[flagged]
- scentChicken 3y agoBeen a lurker for a while and just wanted to comment on the post. I still think recommendation still stands. I'd rather have the discussion be about the benefits of legal action vs executing instead of how long this account has been around.
- newuser0000 3y ago[flagged]
- jacquesm 3y agoThat's not always as easy as you seem to want to make it. It can take a long time to establish a field and a product line, a copycat can skip all your mistakes and take the end product. Now: it all depends on what was copied. They've copied code, text from the website, other documentation they may well be in serious trouble. And then it helps that they happen to be funded because that makes them a nice fat & juicy target. The last thing you want is to sue some party that is penniless.
- za3faran 3y agoWhat does you being female have to do with the issue at hand?
- mikecoles 3y agoWas wondering about that myself.
- jacquesm 3y agoThat YC is advertising itself as 'female founder friendly' and to fund a bunch of - presumably, too little data - guys to copy the product of a female applicant that got rejected would be a strong move in the wrong direction. But: since the OP doesn't supply any information at all all you can do is speculate about whether or not that is what happened.
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoAsk HN:
- nico 3y agoPaul Graham says you shouldn’t care and they will probably fail: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1697761812698034630?s=46 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1697761812698034630?s=46 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1500779743804903427?s=46 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1500779743804903427?s=46 Of course he’s completely wrong, but YC won’t really do anything about it (except maybe reap the benefits) For what it’s worth, I’m sorry this happened to you, it sucks At the same time, seems like you might be onto something and should just keep going strong Also, maybe you could apply to YC, they usually don’t care about funding competing companies
- jacquesm 3y agoDid you miss this bit above?: > As a female founder, having my app rejected by YC with this product, it just makes me angry.
- nico 3y agoI did miss it, thank you You can still apply multiple times after getting rejected. There’s plenty of stories of companies/founders that only got into YC after several rejections To be honest, if I were in their situation I wouldn’t apply again, but it could be a good move regardless
- jacquesm 3y agoI'm not sure what YC's stance is on investing in established businesses, but in the VC world as a rule it is 'not done' to invest in multiple competitors active in the same field. That path is rife with conflicts of interest.
- nico 3y agoYou are right. Not sure about their official policy, but I know of multiple instances of where they’ve invested on competitors of their own companies Sometimes this happens without them even knowing, because they put money into a company very early on, then the company pivots and starts competing with another YC company
- VoodooJuJu 3y ago[flagged]
- okwubodu 3y agoI think it’s fair. When a clone of your product is funded by the same entity that rejected yours, it's only logical to assess the differences that do exist. Had she said “as a first-time founder,” I doubt the victim card argument would be raised.
- gwbas1c 3y agoWhen startups are fundraising or applying to incubators, there is no expectation of confidentiality. I don't think it's fair to ewe to speculate on why YC rejected her company. What I will say is that incubators judge many factors into why they accept companies; and merely having a good idea, or good insight into what kind of product will succeed in the marketplace, isn't the only factor. "Investors talk." It's perfectly reasonable to assume that investors would pass along good ideas that come from entrepreneurs who they don't think can bring them to fruition. That being said, I do think it is poor form on ewe to play the minority status card. Most startups fail, so playing the victim when the odds are against you, just hurts your credibility.
- jacquesm 3y agoIt's very fair: YC bills itself as 'female founder friendly', if it turns out that you can't safely apply without your data leaking through to would be competitors that would be a serious problem. Note that there is zero proof for such a scenario but it is kind of odd that the OP applied there and that a YC backed company is now copying their business. At a minimum you'd expect YC to state very clearly that such a thing did not happen and that this is coincidence. That would put any speculation to that effect to rest.
- sshine 3y agoI don’t understand why YC should object to fund a company that executed an idea that others also execute. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. What matters is the execution. If you execute well, your company will thrive. If everyone is doing it, maybe not.
- danenania 3y agoYC companies also copy other YC companies. It happens all the time. Personally I would prefer that the world didn't work this way, but it's just how the game is played. There are a lot of people in the tech world with the right connections, access to capital, and execution skill, but who either aren't creative enough to come up with an innovative product, or prefer to be the nth-mover in an already-validated market to the risk of trying to establish a new market. If they see that you have a good idea but aren't executing/growing/raising money at an A+ level, they will swoop in and copy your idea and then pretend that they were the first to come up with it. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this apart from (imo) being kind of lame on a personal level. The consumer ultimately benefits from the competition, and you have only yourself to blame really for creating an opening by not executing quickly and effectively enough. It's capitalism. All the solutions to this 'problem' I've ever heard proposed--software patents and the like--create far worse problems for people who want to innovate. If you're working on a new idea and are seeing real traction, you just need to expect this and factor it into your strategy. This is why so much emphasis is placed on having a 'moat' of some kind that is difficult to reproduce. If you're seeing success and it's easy to copy you, someone's probably already working on a clone.
- jacquesm 3y agoCall your lawyer. This is not the venue for such a complaint, but the courts may very well be.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoI don't know, but the possible drama from this might be good for both companies. Start talking about it on twitter and see if you can get some reposts. Hopefully you can use it to your advantage, regardless of the legal outcome.
- abhinai 3y agoSorry OP but right now you need to turn the tables and copy the company that copied you. Their site looks and reads much better than yours.
- wooque 3y agoCopying product and/or API calls is not illegal. Otherwise Amazon would sue Backblaze for B2 (for example).
- gwbas1c 3y agoThere's four kinds of intellectual property: Copyright, patent, trademark, and trade secret. Which of those did they violate? Is your business defensible? (Remember, APIs generally aren't protected by intellectual property. It's the implementation or patents that protect your product. For example, if copying your API violates your patent, then you have a case.) It should go without saying that these shouldn't be new concepts to anyone running a startup.