4 ms·

How exactly do you "end" the contract? Part of the deal with contracts is you don't just get to back out whenever you feel like it. Seems as though Chicago wou

How exactly do you "end" the contract? Part of the deal with contracts is you don't just get to back out whenever you feel like it. Seems as though Chicago would be better off tying pensions for politicions to city financial stability so that they have some motivation to ensure money is wisely spent.

godzillabrennus 3y ago
Never forget that the Covid relief bill from DC bailed out government pensions more so than small family run restaurants.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Good. Pensions are more important than small family run restaurants [1] [2]. There was enough PPP money ($800 billion in low-interest uncollateralized loans) to go around. [1] https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans [2] https://www.ncoa.org/article/latest-census-bureau-data-shows-americans-65-only-group-to-experience-increase-in-poverty https://www.ncoa.org/article/latest-census-bureau-data-shows...
  - jollyllama 3y ago
    "Old people are more important than young people." - t. Gerontocracy.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Old people are more important than wealthy/high income people. Top 40% of US taxpayers pay into the general fund (bottom 60% don't have a federal income tax liability), and most young folks don't earn enough income to hit the highest marginal rates, let alone have any material assets to speak of (real estate, securities, businesses). There is enough wealth (not fiat, wealth, they are distinct) for this, just gotta get it. Bezos doesn't need to go to the Moon, and Ellison doesn't need yet another carbon fiber sailing yacht, very roughly speaking. There is a balance to be found, but pitting all old people against all young people when its really the wealthy who soaked up most of the wealth over the last 40 years (pensions shed for 401ks, globalization, a reduction in labor power) is sort of disingenuous [1] [2] [3] [4]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-americans-own-a-record-89percent-of-all-us-stocks.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-... (The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks) [2] https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/who-owns-most-land/ https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/who-owns-mos... (Who Owns the Most Land in the United States?) [3] https://slate.com/business/2021/06/blackrock-invitation-houses-investment-firms-real-estate.html https://slate.com/business/2021/06/blackrock-invitation-hous... (Investment Firms Aren’t Buying All the Houses. But They Are Buying the Most Important Ones.) [4] https://ustrustaem.fs.ml.com/content/dam/ust/articles/pdf/2022-BofaA-Private-Bank-Study-of-Wealthy-Americans.pdf https://ustrustaem.fs.ml.com/content/dam/ust/articles/pdf/20... (2022 Bank of America Private Bank Study of Wealthy Americans: The impact of shifting generational attitudes amid an historic wealth transfer) [Only 27% of the ultra wealthy are self made; 70% of Americans who hold more than $3 million are over 56 years old.] (i am self aware enough, and sufficiently familiar with statistics and survivorship bias, to realize that I am not a temporarily embarrassed ultra wealthy person, ymmv; i don't fault lucky people of course, just don't try to lie to the rest of us that it wasn't luck)
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        There are many political fault lines simultaneously in play, including old vs young. From the federal government backstopping real estate prices, stock market prices, and spending increasing proportions of the budget on healthcare for old people, all efforts are made to appease them first, and then younger populations. Which makes sense since without old people's support, you are not winning elections. There is no reason for Medicare to reimburse healthcare providers more than Medicaid, other than to direct more resources to older people than to younger people. Old people get cash and benefits, young people get debt, which then helps increase the value of assets older people own. Will be interesting to see this play out with proportionally fewer and fewer young people.
  - PM_me_your_math 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - WC3w6pXxgGd 3y ago
    [dead]
  - bavell 3y ago
    Brilliant plan. I was getting tired of all the local restaurants anyway, not enough copycat chains IMO. Glad we prioritized old people who no longer contribute much to the economy.
    - polygamous_bat 3y ago
      > Glad we prioritized old people who no longer contribute much to the economy. Should have just let them starve and be homeless, hell yeah brother. Maybe even straight to the incinerator once you retire and stop contributing to the economy. After all, the GDP must flourish!
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
        You are being sarcastic, but Texas Lt Governor Dan Patrick was quoted on the record essentially unironically saying this about old people during COVID [1] 1: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1167341 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1167341
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  If you want to complain where PPP money went, you should ask the republicans why they removed all oversight from the system.
triceratops 3y ago
GP is suggesting that both parties voluntarily agree to end the contract. The government applies suitable incentives to gain cooperation.
JackFr 3y ago
No, you don't get to back out. But a starting point would be to find out where the investors would be willing to be bought out, and then start negotiating from there. One can put a dollar value on how bad this deal is, and that is the cost of getting out of it.
Someone 3y ago
> How exactly do you "end" the contract? Part of the deal with contracts is you don't just get to back out whenever you feel like it. That’s not true if you’re a country. They can nationalize privately owned assets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization), default on loans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default), print money to devalue loans, etc. without repercussions other than loss of trust.
- mnd999 3y ago
  Nationalising (Statelizing?) the parking meter provision sounds like a great way to get of this contract.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  The constitution makes this a bit sticky. It specifically says contracts with the government can not just be ended whenever the government wants and that nationalizing assets requires the government pay the owner fair market value. You can always go full Andrew Jackson and just ignore the courts I guess but that's a tough road.
polski-g 3y ago
Pension bloat/spiking is an easy thing to fix: just tax pension earnings as income.

godzillabrennus 3y ago

Never forget that the Covid relief bill from DC bailed out government pensions more so than small family run restaurants.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Good. Pensions are more important than small family run restaurants [1] [2]. There was enough PPP money ($800 billion in low-interest uncollateralized loans) to go around. [1] https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans https://www.gao.gov/financial-security-older-americans [2] https://www.ncoa.org/article/latest-census-bureau-data-shows-americans-65-only-group-to-experience-increase-in-poverty https://www.ncoa.org/article/latest-census-bureau-data-shows...
- jollyllama 3y ago
  "Old people are more important than young people." - t. Gerontocracy.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Old people are more important than wealthy/high income people. Top 40% of US taxpayers pay into the general fund (bottom 60% don't have a federal income tax liability), and most young folks don't earn enough income to hit the highest marginal rates, let alone have any material assets to speak of (real estate, securities, businesses). There is enough wealth (not fiat, wealth, they are distinct) for this, just gotta get it. Bezos doesn't need to go to the Moon, and Ellison doesn't need yet another carbon fiber sailing yacht, very roughly speaking. There is a balance to be found, but pitting all old people against all young people when its really the wealthy who soaked up most of the wealth over the last 40 years (pensions shed for 401ks, globalization, a reduction in labor power) is sort of disingenuous [1] [2] [3] [4]. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-americans-own-a-record-89percent-of-all-us-stocks.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-... (The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks) [2] https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/who-owns-most-land/ https://www.madisontrust.com/information-center/who-owns-mos... (Who Owns the Most Land in the United States?) [3] https://slate.com/business/2021/06/blackrock-invitation-houses-investment-firms-real-estate.html https://slate.com/business/2021/06/blackrock-invitation-hous... (Investment Firms Aren’t Buying All the Houses. But They Are Buying the Most Important Ones.) [4] https://ustrustaem.fs.ml.com/content/dam/ust/articles/pdf/2022-BofaA-Private-Bank-Study-of-Wealthy-Americans.pdf https://ustrustaem.fs.ml.com/content/dam/ust/articles/pdf/20... (2022 Bank of America Private Bank Study of Wealthy Americans: The impact of shifting generational attitudes amid an historic wealth transfer) [Only 27% of the ultra wealthy are self made; 70% of Americans who hold more than $3 million are over 56 years old.] (i am self aware enough, and sufficiently familiar with statistics and survivorship bias, to realize that I am not a temporarily embarrassed ultra wealthy person, ymmv; i don't fault lucky people of course, just don't try to lie to the rest of us that it wasn't luck)
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      There are many political fault lines simultaneously in play, including old vs young. From the federal government backstopping real estate prices, stock market prices, and spending increasing proportions of the budget on healthcare for old people, all efforts are made to appease them first, and then younger populations. Which makes sense since without old people's support, you are not winning elections. There is no reason for Medicare to reimburse healthcare providers more than Medicaid, other than to direct more resources to older people than to younger people. Old people get cash and benefits, young people get debt, which then helps increase the value of assets older people own. Will be interesting to see this play out with proportionally fewer and fewer young people.
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago
  [flagged]
- WC3w6pXxgGd 3y ago
  [dead]
- bavell 3y ago
  Brilliant plan. I was getting tired of all the local restaurants anyway, not enough copycat chains IMO. Glad we prioritized old people who no longer contribute much to the economy.
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    > Glad we prioritized old people who no longer contribute much to the economy. Should have just let them starve and be homeless, hell yeah brother. Maybe even straight to the incinerator once you retire and stop contributing to the economy. After all, the GDP must flourish!
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
      You are being sarcastic, but Texas Lt Governor Dan Patrick was quoted on the record essentially unironically saying this about old people during COVID [1] 1: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1167341 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1167341
mrguyorama 3y ago
If you want to complain where PPP money went, you should ask the republicans why they removed all oversight from the system.

triceratops 3y ago

GP is suggesting that both parties voluntarily agree to end the contract. The government applies suitable incentives to gain cooperation.

JackFr 3y ago

No, you don't get to back out. But a starting point would be to find out where the investors would be willing to be bought out, and then start negotiating from there. One can put a dollar value on how bad this deal is, and that is the cost of getting out of it.

Someone 3y ago

> How exactly do you "end" the contract? Part of the deal with contracts is you don't just get to back out whenever you feel like it. That’s not true if you’re a country. They can nationalize privately owned assets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization), default on loans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default), print money to devalue loans, etc. without repercussions other than loss of trust.

mnd999 3y ago
Nationalising (Statelizing?) the parking meter provision sounds like a great way to get of this contract.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
HDThoreaun 3y ago
The constitution makes this a bit sticky. It specifically says contracts with the government can not just be ended whenever the government wants and that nationalizing assets requires the government pay the owner fair market value. You can always go full Andrew Jackson and just ignore the courts I guess but that's a tough road.

polski-g 3y ago

Pension bloat/spiking is an easy thing to fix: just tax pension earnings as income.