3 ms·

It's not just the UK. The Netherlands is like that as well and it's lost it's democracy. They can now hack anyone, not just criminals, without a judge being inv

by hcfman 3y ago

It's not just the UK. The Netherlands is like that as well and it's lost it's democracy. They can now hack anyone, not just criminals, without a judge being involved or even any evidence. They can shutdown speech that they don't like and they regularly commit criminal acts against non-criminally involved citizens organised by non-accountable organisations.

hcfman 3y ago
Oh, and the Netherlands also holds provably completely sham court cases where the authorities pervert the course of justice in order to shutdown repercussions of criminal activity that they have been involved in.
- pjc50 3y ago
  [citation needed]
jacquesm 3y ago
This is a bit over the top, don't you think? Case in point: we will have elections one of these days, that seems to be proof to me that we still are a democracy. Or do you believe in widespread vote fraud?
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  Elections alone don't make a democracy. Fair and free and secret elections are necessary but not sufficient for a democracy. Free press, protection of minorities, free speech, separation of powers, fundamental rights are other parts I think are necessary for a liberal democracy.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    To a large degree we have all of those, I'm not sure which countries rank better on those parameters but there can't be all that many of them. - #6 press freedom ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index - #9 freedom house https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores - #11 freedom of speech https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-freedom-of-speech https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries... And so on. Now: this isn't saying that NL is perfect, not by a long shot. We have seen some absolutely terrible behavior by politicians, most notably on the right extreme part of the spectrum. Emboldened by Trump's election populism is on the rise here as well and we see just the same idiotic behavior as in the USA. Including word-for-word translations of talking points (which are utterly ridiculous in a Dutch context, but never mind that sort of detail), attempts (and some success) at polarization and so on. For that reasons alone the next elections are pretty exciting in that we can either further derail or - hopefully - that there will be some pushback against this. But it is usually the people arguing the loudest that there is no democracy, freedom of press and separation of powers here that are the ones that are trying to destabilize things further.
    - master-lincoln 3y ago
      Totally agree with you. OPs complaint about the police being able to gather private information of their citizens without a judge having to agree to it first might be seen as violating separation of powers, but as long as a judge still decides what the punishment is after seeing the evidence, I merely see this as a state not respecting individual's privacy, which is probably not a common thing to require for a democracy. Sadly those erosions are to be seen in many EU countries currently...
      - kwhitefoot 3y ago
        > a state not respecting individual's privacy, which is probably not a common thing to require for a democracy. Surely invasion of privacy is a violation of the CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. " Article 7 Respect for private and family life Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. Article 8 Protection of personal data 1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her. 2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified. 3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority." https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT#d1e167-393-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
    - EvertBouw 3y ago
      How is the press free? Even the ANP nieuws is owned by some hedgefund that calls itself 'fuck off'. Do you think they will ever print something against the status quo?
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        A free press means: you can go buy a press, issue a newspaper as of tomorrow (or a website, for that matter) and write there whatever you want, and until a judge is involved nothing can or will be done about barring some emergency order. Who owns ANP nieuws has nothing to do with whether or not the press is free.
- vaylian 3y ago
  As long as most people are not aware of these problems, they will not vote against the politicians that make these laws. This is really not a question about democracy but a question about how well-informed the population is.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Except of course the bit that these problems are overblown. But the people pushing these as problems are exactly the ones that stand to benefit from trying to grab power. There is a substantial amount of money pumped into the destabilization of the Dutch political order, a massive powershift is expected and the direction we are headed in is the wrong one by any objective measure. To a large extent this anti-EU, anti-climate and anti-press sentiment originates from both the very wealthy agricultural lobby in NL as well as the right wing. The interesting part is that you'll find the parties that would like to deport foreigners fomenting civil unrest and these are now in bed with the farming lobby. It's with some anxiety that I'm looking at the next six months here, it could well go the way of Italy, or possibly much worse (think 'Orban' or something like that).

by hcfman 3y ago

hcfman 3y ago

Oh, and the Netherlands also holds provably completely sham court cases where the authorities pervert the course of justice in order to shutdown repercussions of criminal activity that they have been involved in.

pjc50 3y ago
[citation needed]

jacquesm 3y ago

This is a bit over the top, don't you think? Case in point: we will have elections one of these days, that seems to be proof to me that we still are a democracy. Or do you believe in widespread vote fraud?

master-lincoln 3y ago
Elections alone don't make a democracy. Fair and free and secret elections are necessary but not sufficient for a democracy. Free press, protection of minorities, free speech, separation of powers, fundamental rights are other parts I think are necessary for a liberal democracy.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  To a large degree we have all of those, I'm not sure which countries rank better on those parameters but there can't be all that many of them. - #6 press freedom ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index - #9 freedom house https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores - #11 freedom of speech https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-freedom-of-speech https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries... And so on. Now: this isn't saying that NL is perfect, not by a long shot. We have seen some absolutely terrible behavior by politicians, most notably on the right extreme part of the spectrum. Emboldened by Trump's election populism is on the rise here as well and we see just the same idiotic behavior as in the USA. Including word-for-word translations of talking points (which are utterly ridiculous in a Dutch context, but never mind that sort of detail), attempts (and some success) at polarization and so on. For that reasons alone the next elections are pretty exciting in that we can either further derail or - hopefully - that there will be some pushback against this. But it is usually the people arguing the loudest that there is no democracy, freedom of press and separation of powers here that are the ones that are trying to destabilize things further.
  - master-lincoln 3y ago
    Totally agree with you. OPs complaint about the police being able to gather private information of their citizens without a judge having to agree to it first might be seen as violating separation of powers, but as long as a judge still decides what the punishment is after seeing the evidence, I merely see this as a state not respecting individual's privacy, which is probably not a common thing to require for a democracy. Sadly those erosions are to be seen in many EU countries currently...
    - kwhitefoot 3y ago
      > a state not respecting individual's privacy, which is probably not a common thing to require for a democracy. Surely invasion of privacy is a violation of the CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. " Article 7 Respect for private and family life Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications. Article 8 Protection of personal data 1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her. 2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified. 3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority." https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT#d1e167-393-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
  - EvertBouw 3y ago
    How is the press free? Even the ANP nieuws is owned by some hedgefund that calls itself 'fuck off'. Do you think they will ever print something against the status quo?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      A free press means: you can go buy a press, issue a newspaper as of tomorrow (or a website, for that matter) and write there whatever you want, and until a judge is involved nothing can or will be done about barring some emergency order. Who owns ANP nieuws has nothing to do with whether or not the press is free.
vaylian 3y ago
As long as most people are not aware of these problems, they will not vote against the politicians that make these laws. This is really not a question about democracy but a question about how well-informed the population is.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Except of course the bit that these problems are overblown. But the people pushing these as problems are exactly the ones that stand to benefit from trying to grab power. There is a substantial amount of money pumped into the destabilization of the Dutch political order, a massive powershift is expected and the direction we are headed in is the wrong one by any objective measure. To a large extent this anti-EU, anti-climate and anti-press sentiment originates from both the very wealthy agricultural lobby in NL as well as the right wing. The interesting part is that you'll find the parties that would like to deport foreigners fomenting civil unrest and these are now in bed with the farming lobby. It's with some anxiety that I'm looking at the next six months here, it could well go the way of Italy, or possibly much worse (think 'Orban' or something like that).