4 ms·

Are they losing control, or are they becoming control freaks who want more control than they've traditionally had and have any right or business having? Both wo

Are they losing control, or are they becoming control freaks who want more control than they've traditionally had and have any right or business having? Both would manifest as the government thinking it has insufficient control, but the cause is very different.

pydry 3y ago
Theyre authoritarian control freaks. The UK is undergoing progressive Russification with bipartisan support (Labour under Starmer and the Tories are both on board with it). Protesting is now effectively illegal thanks to a new law criminalizing it if it's a "nuisance". You're still technically allowed to hold up a blank piece of paper but the police will threaten to arrest you if you write something on it. That happened during the coronation. I'm fairly sure theyre going to borrow a whole lot more from Putin's playbook in the next few years - especially now that British oligarchs have managed to hammer the two previously opposing parties back into ideological alignment.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Yes, it is, in fact, illegal to pray in many locations of the U.K., and people have been arrested and charged for it. Think about it: prayer, an interior orientation of the mind to God; not even any audible speech is necessary to commit a heinous, treasonous act.
  - robin_reala 3y ago
    [citation needed]
    - flir 3y ago
      I'll bet you 50p it's the abortion facility buffer zones. Public space protection orders.
  - tescocles 3y ago
    Not even close. The specific case I know you're talking about is the woman who was in an exclusion zone that was in place to stop people harassing women entering an abortion clinic. If she doesn't want "praying silently in her head" to be interpreted as harassment, maybe she should think about the behaviour she and her cohorts have engaged in that might have lead to this interpretation. Sure, you can disagree with that as well, but she wasn't arrested for praying. She was arrested for intimidation and harassment. She doesn't get a special pass just because of the method.
    - sjducb 3y ago
      This is a common misunderstanding. Harassing people near abortion clinics is a separate offense. The lady in question has harassed people in the past, but she was specifically arrested and charged for prayer in this case. This offense of prayer is separate to her harassment of people. It’s like if you had drugs in your pocket while harassing someone. They’re separate offenses. This video explains the situation and references the original police and court records. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FS5FT-4Kx7E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FS5FT-4Kx7E
      - flir 3y ago
        If anyone wants to jump straight to the order itself, it's the first link under that youtube video. > the council is satisfied on reasonable grounds that there are a number of activities, carried out or are likely to be carried out in a public space namely the area within and surrounding Station Road, Birmingham, B30, shown outlined on the map attached ( the restricted area) that have had, or are likely to have, a detrimental effect on the quality of life of those in the locality. The effect or likely effect of these activities is of a persistent or continuing nature such as to make these activities unreasonable, and justifies the restrictions imposed in this order [...] > The Activities prohibited by the Order are: > i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling, > ii Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff, > iii Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff, > iv Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff or > v Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy. She was protesting. It's a persistent pattern of behaviour. It's harassment.
slashdev 3y ago
I think it’s very much this latter. The multiplying force of technology has made it extremely difficult to overthrow a government by force. I do not think it is possible in the West. Governments have never had so much control over money and information. They’re not losing control, they just keep tightening their grip. I don’t know if this Democratic experiment can survive in that environment. I certainly hope it does, but bills like this give me doubts.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Governments have never had so much control over money and information. They’re not losing control, they just keep tightening their grip. Well - East Germany must've had worse, surely? All money controlled by the state and state-sponsored spying?
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    I've heard the Stasi were breaking into people's homes and stealing their underwear to store in archives of scent jars for their dogs, but as extreme as that is I don't think that and their other tactics gave them anything close to the surveillance capabilities modern governments now have thanks to everybody carrying a smartphone 24/7.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Well, sometimes they'd have someone crouched in the room next door listening and looking. That seems fairly invasive even by today's standards.
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        Yes, the things the Stasi did were insanely paranoid. But I think they still got less "bang for their buck" than modern western democracies. The latter have a far more complete map of who associates with who, logs of where people have been even months before they become subjects of interest, etc.

pydry 3y ago

Theyre authoritarian control freaks. The UK is undergoing progressive Russification with bipartisan support (Labour under Starmer and the Tories are both on board with it). Protesting is now effectively illegal thanks to a new law criminalizing it if it's a "nuisance". You're still technically allowed to hold up a blank piece of paper but the police will threaten to arrest you if you write something on it. That happened during the coronation. I'm fairly sure theyre going to borrow a whole lot more from Putin's playbook in the next few years - especially now that British oligarchs have managed to hammer the two previously opposing parties back into ideological alignment.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Yes, it is, in fact, illegal to pray in many locations of the U.K., and people have been arrested and charged for it. Think about it: prayer, an interior orientation of the mind to God; not even any audible speech is necessary to commit a heinous, treasonous act.
- robin_reala 3y ago
  [citation needed]
  - flir 3y ago
    I'll bet you 50p it's the abortion facility buffer zones. Public space protection orders.
- tescocles 3y ago
  Not even close. The specific case I know you're talking about is the woman who was in an exclusion zone that was in place to stop people harassing women entering an abortion clinic. If she doesn't want "praying silently in her head" to be interpreted as harassment, maybe she should think about the behaviour she and her cohorts have engaged in that might have lead to this interpretation. Sure, you can disagree with that as well, but she wasn't arrested for praying. She was arrested for intimidation and harassment. She doesn't get a special pass just because of the method.
  - sjducb 3y ago
    This is a common misunderstanding. Harassing people near abortion clinics is a separate offense. The lady in question has harassed people in the past, but she was specifically arrested and charged for prayer in this case. This offense of prayer is separate to her harassment of people. It’s like if you had drugs in your pocket while harassing someone. They’re separate offenses. This video explains the situation and references the original police and court records. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FS5FT-4Kx7E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FS5FT-4Kx7E
    - flir 3y ago
      If anyone wants to jump straight to the order itself, it's the first link under that youtube video. > the council is satisfied on reasonable grounds that there are a number of activities, carried out or are likely to be carried out in a public space namely the area within and surrounding Station Road, Birmingham, B30, shown outlined on the map attached ( the restricted area) that have had, or are likely to have, a detrimental effect on the quality of life of those in the locality. The effect or likely effect of these activities is of a persistent or continuing nature such as to make these activities unreasonable, and justifies the restrictions imposed in this order [...] > The Activities prohibited by the Order are: > i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling, > ii Interfering, or attempting to interfere, whether verbally or physically, with a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff, > iii Intimidating or harassing, or attempting to intimidate or harass, a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or a member of staff, > iv Recording or photographing a Robert Clinic service user, visitor or member of staff or > v Displaying any text or images relating directly or indirectly to the termination of pregnancy. She was protesting. It's a persistent pattern of behaviour. It's harassment.

slashdev 3y ago

I think it’s very much this latter. The multiplying force of technology has made it extremely difficult to overthrow a government by force. I do not think it is possible in the West. Governments have never had so much control over money and information. They’re not losing control, they just keep tightening their grip. I don’t know if this Democratic experiment can survive in that environment. I certainly hope it does, but bills like this give me doubts.

robertlagrant 3y ago
> Governments have never had so much control over money and information. They’re not losing control, they just keep tightening their grip. Well - East Germany must've had worse, surely? All money controlled by the state and state-sponsored spying?
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  I've heard the Stasi were breaking into people's homes and stealing their underwear to store in archives of scent jars for their dogs, but as extreme as that is I don't think that and their other tactics gave them anything close to the surveillance capabilities modern governments now have thanks to everybody carrying a smartphone 24/7.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Well, sometimes they'd have someone crouched in the room next door listening and looking. That seems fairly invasive even by today's standards.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      Yes, the things the Stasi did were insanely paranoid. But I think they still got less "bang for their buck" than modern western democracies. The latter have a far more complete map of who associates with who, logs of where people have been even months before they become subjects of interest, etc.