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I was just using the cost to replace all gas cars in the US to frame the magnitude of the conversation. Honestly what’s cool to me is being able to travel anyw

I was just using the cost to replace all gas cars in the US to frame the magnitude of the conversation. Honestly what’s cool to me is being able to travel anywhere in America any time I want for a few dollars without owning a depreciating asset I have to pay $1-2000 per month in payments for, a few hundred in insurance, a few hundred in parking and a few hundred in maintenance, a few hundred in gas - plus tickets and tolls. I need all that just to get around the city I live in. Then there’s the 1% lifetime risk of dying in a car accident and the easily order of magnitude higher risk I’ll get injured. For the privilege of being stuck in traffic jams all the time. That’s indentured servitude, not freedom, and that’s true whether my car is powered by gasoline, electricity or whale oil. They’re luxury products and we should treat them like luxury products - not minimum requirements to participate in society whose needs are socialized. If you want a car you should pay for the road you drive on. We can use what we’re not spending on roads to pay for trains.

XorNot 3y ago
Provided you always plan ahead for where you're going by multiple hours. And don't carry anything more then hand luggage. And don't semi-regularly need to move heavy loads. Or need to get children from place to place. And that there's public transport service there at all. People always have some "look how lightweight my life is, why would anyone need a car" and I can pretty reliably guess that they (1) don't own a house and/or (2) don't have kids, and/or (3) don't work in a job which requires them to get to more then 1 site and/or (4) live near the center of a major urban center. Finally: "pay for the road you drive on" - that's literally what gas taxes are for, EVs already attract additional taxes to account for this, and I'm real curious how you think the things you buy in stores get there...
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > Provided you always plan ahead for where you're going by multiple hours. I took Hong Kong MTR recently and during peak times they had 40 trains per hour (2 trains every 3 minutes), and off-peak it was like 8 trains per hour. You really didn't have to plan ahead. It was lovely. > And don't carry anything more then hand luggage. Order it delivered. > And don't semi-regularly need to move heavy loads. Rent a car when you need it. > Or need to get children from place to place Go with them on transit. > And that there's public transport service there at all. Which is my point. > Finally: "pay for the road you drive on" - that's literally what gas taxes are for, EVs already attract additional taxes to account for this, and I'm real curious how you think the things you buy in stores get there... The entire cost of roads is not born by fuel taxes. Fuel taxes total about $50B but roads generally cost about $200B. Free parking, parking minimums in building, etc, etc, are all taxes non-drivers have to pay to support drivers habits.
sokoloff 3y ago
> I have to pay $1-2000 per month in payments for, a few hundred in insurance, a few hundred in parking and a few hundred in maintenance, a few hundred in gas - plus tickets and tolls. I need all that just to get around the city I live in. We have a family of four, two adult drivers and two cars. I haven't had a car payment in years, but let's allocate $250/mo towards replacing cars every 10-12 years or so with another used car. We pay $102/mo in insurance, about $80/mo in gas and $20/mo in electricity, about $60/mo in registration and taxes, and if I budget $200/mo in repairs (one Honda, one EV), I'll have money left over. One of us needs all of $2-3k/mo for one and the other needs ~$750/mo for two. There's a wide range of what one can spend on motoring versus what one must.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > One of us needs all of $2-3k/mo for one and the other needs ~$750/mo for two. There's a wide range of what one can spend on motoring versus what one must. I spend $70 per month to go everywhere, whenever I want, with zero tail risk. Forcing this huge cost on everyone is a regressive burden on the poor. $750/month for a family's lifetime is easily $450,000. Wouldn't you prefer to retire early, or have an extra half million dollars to leave your kids?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I misunderstood what you meant when you said "I need all that just to get around the city I live in" then.

XorNot 3y ago

Provided you always plan ahead for where you're going by multiple hours. And don't carry anything more then hand luggage. And don't semi-regularly need to move heavy loads. Or need to get children from place to place. And that there's public transport service there at all. People always have some "look how lightweight my life is, why would anyone need a car" and I can pretty reliably guess that they (1) don't own a house and/or (2) don't have kids, and/or (3) don't work in a job which requires them to get to more then 1 site and/or (4) live near the center of a major urban center. Finally: "pay for the road you drive on" - that's literally what gas taxes are for, EVs already attract additional taxes to account for this, and I'm real curious how you think the things you buy in stores get there...

arcticbull 3y ago
> Provided you always plan ahead for where you're going by multiple hours. I took Hong Kong MTR recently and during peak times they had 40 trains per hour (2 trains every 3 minutes), and off-peak it was like 8 trains per hour. You really didn't have to plan ahead. It was lovely. > And don't carry anything more then hand luggage. Order it delivered. > And don't semi-regularly need to move heavy loads. Rent a car when you need it. > Or need to get children from place to place Go with them on transit. > And that there's public transport service there at all. Which is my point. > Finally: "pay for the road you drive on" - that's literally what gas taxes are for, EVs already attract additional taxes to account for this, and I'm real curious how you think the things you buy in stores get there... The entire cost of roads is not born by fuel taxes. Fuel taxes total about $50B but roads generally cost about $200B. Free parking, parking minimums in building, etc, etc, are all taxes non-drivers have to pay to support drivers habits.

sokoloff 3y ago

> I have to pay $1-2000 per month in payments for, a few hundred in insurance, a few hundred in parking and a few hundred in maintenance, a few hundred in gas - plus tickets and tolls. I need all that just to get around the city I live in. We have a family of four, two adult drivers and two cars. I haven't had a car payment in years, but let's allocate $250/mo towards replacing cars every 10-12 years or so with another used car. We pay $102/mo in insurance, about $80/mo in gas and $20/mo in electricity, about $60/mo in registration and taxes, and if I budget $200/mo in repairs (one Honda, one EV), I'll have money left over. One of us needs all of $2-3k/mo for one and the other needs ~$750/mo for two. There's a wide range of what one can spend on motoring versus what one must.

arcticbull 3y ago
> One of us needs all of $2-3k/mo for one and the other needs ~$750/mo for two. There's a wide range of what one can spend on motoring versus what one must. I spend $70 per month to go everywhere, whenever I want, with zero tail risk. Forcing this huge cost on everyone is a regressive burden on the poor. $750/month for a family's lifetime is easily $450,000. Wouldn't you prefer to retire early, or have an extra half million dollars to leave your kids?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I misunderstood what you meant when you said "I need all that just to get around the city I live in" then.