5 ms·

It's better, it's not best - we know what 'best' is and what it looks like, we're just choosing not to invest in it. The main issue I have is it's being market

It's better, it's not best - we know what 'best' is and what it looks like, we're just choosing not to invest in it. The main issue I have is it's being marketed as something it isn't to placate entrenched interests. > Those people should wait, and let someone else use the EV. Why? Why shouldn't both people take a train? Same kind of argument really.

rootusrootus 3y ago
Are you suggesting 'best' is public transit? We know already that it doesn't come anywhere close to solving the myriad use cases for private transportation. I'd love a very healthy public transit system, but cars are always going to have their place. Public transit has a halfway decent use case for a good number of people, for sure.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Each car costs $50-100K right now, times however many cars we're going to replace over the coming few years. Thats 290M * let's call it $75K = $21T. What kind of transit system do you think that would buy us? How much better for the environment do you think that would be? A transit system like Hong Kong MTR would get us down to 1 in 3 people owning a car. Down from 179% right now. If the rest were gas, so what? Could still swap them out for electric over time.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    You can buy any of a number of EVs for quite a bit less than 50K. And they'd be replacing an equivalent ICEV that's going to be replaced anyway, for a use case that will not 100% be replaceable by public transit. Comparing the US to Hong Kong is severely biased. Though it does explain why many people on HN are so delusional about what problems public transit can and cannot solve. Even in Europe, which everyone says has much better public transit than the US, the vast majority of people own cars. They're useful, and denying that just destroys the pro-transit argument before it can even be made.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    The US light duty vehicle (GVW under 7 tons) sales are in the 14-17M/yr range. The average price is just over $46K. Multiply and you get around $700B/yr. $21T is 30 years worth, which doesn't match my usage of "coming few years". (That also assumes that all new vehicles could be replaced with transit, which is obviously false for most delivery and service/construction type vehicles, many of which fit into the light-duty segment figures above.)
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      I was just using the cost to replace all gas cars in the US to frame the magnitude of the conversation. Honestly what’s cool to me is being able to travel anywhere in America any time I want for a few dollars without owning a depreciating asset I have to pay $1-2000 per month in payments for, a few hundred in insurance, a few hundred in parking and a few hundred in maintenance, a few hundred in gas - plus tickets and tolls. I need all that just to get around the city I live in. Then there’s the 1% lifetime risk of dying in a car accident and the easily order of magnitude higher risk I’ll get injured. For the privilege of being stuck in traffic jams all the time. That’s indentured servitude, not freedom, and that’s true whether my car is powered by gasoline, electricity or whale oil. They’re luxury products and we should treat them like luxury products - not minimum requirements to participate in society whose needs are socialized. If you want a car you should pay for the road you drive on. We can use what we’re not spending on roads to pay for trains.
      - XorNot 3y ago
        Provided you always plan ahead for where you're going by multiple hours. And don't carry anything more then hand luggage. And don't semi-regularly need to move heavy loads. Or need to get children from place to place. And that there's public transport service there at all. People always have some "look how lightweight my life is, why would anyone need a car" and I can pretty reliably guess that they (1) don't own a house and/or (2) don't have kids, and/or (3) don't work in a job which requires them to get to more then 1 site and/or (4) live near the center of a major urban center. Finally: "pay for the road you drive on" - that's literally what gas taxes are for, EVs already attract additional taxes to account for this, and I'm real curious how you think the things you buy in stores get there...

rootusrootus 3y ago

Are you suggesting 'best' is public transit? We know already that it doesn't come anywhere close to solving the myriad use cases for private transportation. I'd love a very healthy public transit system, but cars are always going to have their place. Public transit has a halfway decent use case for a good number of people, for sure.

arcticbull 3y ago
Each car costs $50-100K right now, times however many cars we're going to replace over the coming few years. Thats 290M * let's call it $75K = $21T. What kind of transit system do you think that would buy us? How much better for the environment do you think that would be? A transit system like Hong Kong MTR would get us down to 1 in 3 people owning a car. Down from 179% right now. If the rest were gas, so what? Could still swap them out for electric over time.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  You can buy any of a number of EVs for quite a bit less than 50K. And they'd be replacing an equivalent ICEV that's going to be replaced anyway, for a use case that will not 100% be replaceable by public transit. Comparing the US to Hong Kong is severely biased. Though it does explain why many people on HN are so delusional about what problems public transit can and cannot solve. Even in Europe, which everyone says has much better public transit than the US, the vast majority of people own cars. They're useful, and denying that just destroys the pro-transit argument before it can even be made.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  The US light duty vehicle (GVW under 7 tons) sales are in the 14-17M/yr range. The average price is just over $46K. Multiply and you get around $700B/yr. $21T is 30 years worth, which doesn't match my usage of "coming few years". (That also assumes that all new vehicles could be replaced with transit, which is obviously false for most delivery and service/construction type vehicles, many of which fit into the light-duty segment figures above.)
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    I was just using the cost to replace all gas cars in the US to frame the magnitude of the conversation. Honestly what’s cool to me is being able to travel anywhere in America any time I want for a few dollars without owning a depreciating asset I have to pay $1-2000 per month in payments for, a few hundred in insurance, a few hundred in parking and a few hundred in maintenance, a few hundred in gas - plus tickets and tolls. I need all that just to get around the city I live in. Then there’s the 1% lifetime risk of dying in a car accident and the easily order of magnitude higher risk I’ll get injured. For the privilege of being stuck in traffic jams all the time. That’s indentured servitude, not freedom, and that’s true whether my car is powered by gasoline, electricity or whale oil. They’re luxury products and we should treat them like luxury products - not minimum requirements to participate in society whose needs are socialized. If you want a car you should pay for the road you drive on. We can use what we’re not spending on roads to pay for trains.
    - XorNot 3y ago
      Provided you always plan ahead for where you're going by multiple hours. And don't carry anything more then hand luggage. And don't semi-regularly need to move heavy loads. Or need to get children from place to place. And that there's public transport service there at all. People always have some "look how lightweight my life is, why would anyone need a car" and I can pretty reliably guess that they (1) don't own a house and/or (2) don't have kids, and/or (3) don't work in a job which requires them to get to more then 1 site and/or (4) live near the center of a major urban center. Finally: "pay for the road you drive on" - that's literally what gas taxes are for, EVs already attract additional taxes to account for this, and I'm real curious how you think the things you buy in stores get there...