7 ms·

Outside of Oslo the infrastructure is built with car reliance deincentivizing cars and incentivizing walking and bikes won’t make much difference. Instead they

by vinni2 3y ago

Outside of Oslo the infrastructure is built with car reliance deincentivizing cars and incentivizing walking and bikes won’t make much difference. Instead they should be making public transport more attractive. Walking and biking is not exactly ideal in harsh weather.

anonporridge 3y ago
Winter isn't a legit excuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
- vinni2 3y ago
  Norway is not Netherlands. Try biking in -20 C and go shopping for a family on a bike. Where I live bike paths are not regularly cleared they can get icy and dangerous. Public transport is the way to go. Biking can complement when and where possible. I say this as a person who commutes to work with bike everyday.
  - anonporridge 3y ago
    If you watched the video I linked, you would find every point you just made here dismantled.
    - vinni2 3y ago
      I have seen this video and in the examples he gives they clear the bike paths. Where I live when it snows it’s just impossible to bike. In heavy snow it’s like biking on the sand. And sometimes when the temperatures fluctuate there is black ice I have to worry about. Some bike paths get salted but not all so it’s not a safe continuous ride at least for my commute.
      - anonporridge 3y ago
        The primary point of the video, is that when adequate infrastructure and servicing (plowing and de icing) exists, very cold, harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. In the example city, Oulu Finland, they see a consistent 22% ridership all the way down to -20C, because they incentivize cycling with well designed and maintained infrastructure.
        ekianjo 3y ago
        > harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. So what? Maybe it's because those people who only have a bike don't have any other means to get around? You need to look at different reasons before jumping to conclusions.
        kiba 3y ago
        Rich societies can afford for a large amount of people owning cars.
      - kitkat_new 3y ago
        > And sometimes when the temperatures fluctuate there is black ice I have to worry about. Some bike paths get salted but not all so it’s not a safe continuous ride at least for my commute. there exist winter tyres for bikes, that have spikes - ideal for ice
        pjmlp 3y ago
        In Germany they are forbidden.
        kitkat_new 3y ago
        not for bikes
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Then the law changed while I wasn't paying attention.
    - vinni2 3y ago
      True the temperature is not the issue. The issue is unmaintained bike paths in most of Norway during winters. I did mention that.
      - willio58 3y ago
        Sounds like a chicken or the egg issue to me. Why are the bike paths unmaintained? Because they aren't used as often as in a country like the Netherlands. But how can we increase biking in Norway if the roads are unmaintained? The only answer is radically changing the way we view walking in biking in cities. They are the base of all transportation, and we should treat them as the most important mode of transport for that reason. If we do that, maybe Norway will plow their bike paths. Maybe California will drop their obsession with adding "just 1 more lane" to their freeways. Maybe high-speed rail could become a thing in the US as it is in so much of Europe.
        lb1lf 3y ago
        Also, keep in mind that The Netherlands has a population density some 20 times that of Norway, while being largely, uh, flat, which lots of Norway definitely isn't. There's no doubt maintained bike paths would make cycling more viable, and in the cities great progress have been made in that respect, from what I can see. However, for a significant part of the population, that simply isn't much of an option as roads and bicycle paths alike are used by such a small (relatively speaking) number of people that keeping both maintained basically would ensure we all worked with maintaining the network!
        kiba 3y ago
        Population density across the whole nation can be misleading, because we're summing wild area, rural area, and urban area. What matters more is the amount of supportable infrastructure a given area could support, which is the population density for that specific area. From what I googled, Norway's urban population is about 83%, so cycling infrastructure should go a long way. It also shouldn't be terribly expensive to support rural cycling infrastructure either due to the lack of wear and tear that such infrastructure experienced compared to roads for cars and other vehicles.
    - Kretinsky 3y ago
      I cycled to work for 3 years in Paris. Cycling on fresh snow isn't so dangerous, but on ice it is as you won't be able to brake. Also, cycling by -20°c is a very uncomfortable experience and increases a lot your chances to die if you fall and pass out. Last, cycling, especially in winter, is good if you're able-bodied, but it leaves out people with disabilities, which makes a sizable amount of the population if you take aged people in the mix. I agree with OP that in general, a good public transportation system is the first step toward better cities with less cars. Bikes can play a role, but can't be the solution for everything.
      - Fricken 3y ago
        -20°C is plenty comfortable to ride if you know how to dress for the weather.
        analog31 3y ago
        To put it in perspective for US folks, -20 C is -4 F. It's manageable, including ice, with studded tires. With that said, I don't push it on my friends. I'd rather encourage them to make riding in nice weather a habit before taking the plunge. Also, there's more to it than even cold and ice. The roads become effectively narrower due to piled up snow. It gets dark during commuting hours, making it more dangerous if car traffic is involved. Road salt makes a mess of bikes, so it helps to have a dedicated winter bike that can take the brunt of it.
        Tade0 3y ago
        -20°C is the temperature at which even snot freezes which is in and of itself uncomfortable. I grew up with winters occasionally reaching -30°C and the logistics of walking (and cycling) in such an environment are simply time-consuming.
        Fricken 3y ago
        Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well. Then you sit in a cold car freezing your ass off while waiting for it to warm up. On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice. I've been out riding in -42°C (mostly just to prove I could), and at those temperatures I started running into mechanical problems. The metal of different components shrank at different rates, and my fork was binding up in the headtube, and the freewheel loosened off such that the ratchets wouldn't always connect with the pawls, causing slippage.
  - hyperbovine 3y ago
    -20C is simply not that common in most populated areas (it’s lower than the average daily winter temp even in somewhere like Novosibirsk) and you can plan around it.
  - 8note 3y ago
    If that's the video I'm thinking of, it's referencing Finland, where people bike all year because the bicycle infrastructure is well maintained. Try driving in -20 on unmaintained roads, and you'll find the same thing as your current statement about biking. The temperature is largely unrelated to the infrastructure's useability
    - NorwegianDude 3y ago
      Driving in -20 is good, and often more so if the road has not been salted. Roads are the most slippery around 0 degrees.
- deleted 3y ago
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- sbierwagen 3y ago
  I've been a bicycle commuter for 20 years. According to Strava I've logged 800 miles so far this year. And when snow is on the ground, I drive.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - steelframe 3y ago
    I used to do it that way. But then I got narrow studded tires. They cut through the snow down to the surface and then grip it if it's icy. Admittedly not the cheapest type of tire around. Last I checked a good brand name was going for $175 new. I found a "used once" set on eBay for a lot less.
    - skeeter2020 3y ago
      if you want narrow studded bike tires they're nowhere close to that much. A quick search found decent pizza cutters starting as low as $25/each. If you want studded fat bike tires you're gonna spend $400 for a set. The narrow ones are fine for a little wet snow but suck once you get more than a few inches of dry powder or downtown slop. You're way better to go for flotation then.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  > Winter isn't a legit excuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU when you are 80 years old and frail you'll have to bike too? I do love people who comment by assuming everyone is going to be forever in top health to bike.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - steelframe 3y ago
    The last time I visited Amsterdam, I was surprised by how old a lot of the riders were. That said, when I am pushing 80 years old and if I have health issues, I can imagine that I would want an e-trike. That sort of vehicle solves for the issues of stamina and balance. I don't know that I would ever consider traveling on a micro mobility device to be something I "have" to do. If I ever get to the point that I really can't do it regardless of equipment, I imagine I would feel a sense of loss.
    - ryukafalz 3y ago
      Or a mobility scooter if even an e-trike is too much. Good cycling infrastructure benefits people of widely varying levels of ability: https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo?si=XMhcv3CYFvA83nNV https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo?si=XMhcv3CYFvA83nNV
willio58 3y ago
> Outside of Oslo the infrastructure is built with car reliance deincentivizing cars and incentivizing walking and bikes won’t make much difference. To me this reads like "Cars have won, give up on walking and biking in your cities." That's just not a solution. Just because car lobbyists have successfully ruined nearly all US cities and a good amount of European ones doesn't mean we just sit down and continue to let it happen. I agree public transport is a huge part of the way forward, and I even agree that walking/biking in harsh weather isn't exactly ideal, but we can't let the most simple human ways of existing in cities (walking and biking) go to the wayside just because car companies want us to believe they're bad or unsafe transportation methods. Want to walk in the snow? Put on some boots and wear some layers with a scarf and a hat. Want to walk in the heat? Wear a hat, sunscreen, and a light shirt and pair of shorts. It's not _that_ hard.
- timc3 3y ago
  Have you been in Norway? The weather can be harsh, the Norwegians are some of the best in dealing with it in the world, but covering large parts of Norway with public transport is difficult. I used to bike in Bergen, Norway in the winter and it can be really dangerous - I saw many accidents even from the locals.
  - NorwegianDude 3y ago
    And Bergen has very mild winter compared to the rest of Norway. Rain on the other hand is a different story...
- ffhhttt 3y ago
  Norway outside of Oslo is largely very mountainous and not very densely populated . Maybe an e-bike could be a reasonable option during summer but you still have the rest of the year.. > It's not _that_ hard. Yes it is, for most people given the condition. Implying that they are too lazy etc. it’s just not helpful. > want us to believe they're bad or unsafe transportation methods Conspiracy theories are generally not that useful. Cars are objectively the superior method of transport in low density areas (there is no use in denying that)
- 3y ago
SECProto 3y ago
> Instead they should be making public transport more attractive Indeed, and the article itself agrees with you - the headline is deceptive. Without any specifics, the actual quote from the transport minister is about improving intermodal transport, saying "We must make it more attractive to travel by public transport, cycle, and walk."
vintermann 3y ago
Bah, I'm not sure I'd even call Oslo the most walkable city in Norway. It's perfectly possible to live in smaller cities, or even outside cities, without a car. I visited one of the supposedly ugliest cities in Norway this summer, Alta in Finnmark. It got its reputation because appatently during the reconstruction after the war, they couldn't decide which of the small population centres in the municipality they should locate public functions to, so they put them in the middle. So it was an unusually car-centric city. What I found was that this reputation is either grossly exaggerated, or is no longer true. The grid is maybe spacier than we're used to in Norway, but they have a huge pedestrian plaza in the middle and you can walk to anything you'd need in the city centre. They even seem to have great pedestrian/bike paths all the way out to Hjemmeluft, and there was nice public transport. I'd happily live there without a car. Looking at the real estate prices, though, it seems lots of other people are happy to live there too, harsh weather notwithstanding.

by vinni2 3y ago

anonporridge 3y ago

Winter isn't a legit excuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

vinni2 3y ago
Norway is not Netherlands. Try biking in -20 C and go shopping for a family on a bike. Where I live bike paths are not regularly cleared they can get icy and dangerous. Public transport is the way to go. Biking can complement when and where possible. I say this as a person who commutes to work with bike everyday.
- anonporridge 3y ago
  If you watched the video I linked, you would find every point you just made here dismantled.
  - vinni2 3y ago
    I have seen this video and in the examples he gives they clear the bike paths. Where I live when it snows it’s just impossible to bike. In heavy snow it’s like biking on the sand. And sometimes when the temperatures fluctuate there is black ice I have to worry about. Some bike paths get salted but not all so it’s not a safe continuous ride at least for my commute.
    - anonporridge 3y ago
      The primary point of the video, is that when adequate infrastructure and servicing (plowing and de icing) exists, very cold, harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. In the example city, Oulu Finland, they see a consistent 22% ridership all the way down to -20C, because they incentivize cycling with well designed and maintained infrastructure.
      - ekianjo 3y ago
        > harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. So what? Maybe it's because those people who only have a bike don't have any other means to get around? You need to look at different reasons before jumping to conclusions.
        kiba 3y ago
        Rich societies can afford for a large amount of people owning cars.
    - kitkat_new 3y ago
      > And sometimes when the temperatures fluctuate there is black ice I have to worry about. Some bike paths get salted but not all so it’s not a safe continuous ride at least for my commute. there exist winter tyres for bikes, that have spikes - ideal for ice
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        In Germany they are forbidden.
        kitkat_new 3y ago
        not for bikes
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Then the law changed while I wasn't paying attention.
  - vinni2 3y ago
    True the temperature is not the issue. The issue is unmaintained bike paths in most of Norway during winters. I did mention that.
    - willio58 3y ago
      Sounds like a chicken or the egg issue to me. Why are the bike paths unmaintained? Because they aren't used as often as in a country like the Netherlands. But how can we increase biking in Norway if the roads are unmaintained? The only answer is radically changing the way we view walking in biking in cities. They are the base of all transportation, and we should treat them as the most important mode of transport for that reason. If we do that, maybe Norway will plow their bike paths. Maybe California will drop their obsession with adding "just 1 more lane" to their freeways. Maybe high-speed rail could become a thing in the US as it is in so much of Europe.
      - lb1lf 3y ago
        Also, keep in mind that The Netherlands has a population density some 20 times that of Norway, while being largely, uh, flat, which lots of Norway definitely isn't. There's no doubt maintained bike paths would make cycling more viable, and in the cities great progress have been made in that respect, from what I can see. However, for a significant part of the population, that simply isn't much of an option as roads and bicycle paths alike are used by such a small (relatively speaking) number of people that keeping both maintained basically would ensure we all worked with maintaining the network!
        kiba 3y ago
        Population density across the whole nation can be misleading, because we're summing wild area, rural area, and urban area. What matters more is the amount of supportable infrastructure a given area could support, which is the population density for that specific area. From what I googled, Norway's urban population is about 83%, so cycling infrastructure should go a long way. It also shouldn't be terribly expensive to support rural cycling infrastructure either due to the lack of wear and tear that such infrastructure experienced compared to roads for cars and other vehicles.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago
    I cycled to work for 3 years in Paris. Cycling on fresh snow isn't so dangerous, but on ice it is as you won't be able to brake. Also, cycling by -20°c is a very uncomfortable experience and increases a lot your chances to die if you fall and pass out. Last, cycling, especially in winter, is good if you're able-bodied, but it leaves out people with disabilities, which makes a sizable amount of the population if you take aged people in the mix. I agree with OP that in general, a good public transportation system is the first step toward better cities with less cars. Bikes can play a role, but can't be the solution for everything.
    - Fricken 3y ago
      -20°C is plenty comfortable to ride if you know how to dress for the weather.
      - analog31 3y ago
        To put it in perspective for US folks, -20 C is -4 F. It's manageable, including ice, with studded tires. With that said, I don't push it on my friends. I'd rather encourage them to make riding in nice weather a habit before taking the plunge. Also, there's more to it than even cold and ice. The roads become effectively narrower due to piled up snow. It gets dark during commuting hours, making it more dangerous if car traffic is involved. Road salt makes a mess of bikes, so it helps to have a dedicated winter bike that can take the brunt of it.
      - Tade0 3y ago
        -20°C is the temperature at which even snot freezes which is in and of itself uncomfortable. I grew up with winters occasionally reaching -30°C and the logistics of walking (and cycling) in such an environment are simply time-consuming.
        Fricken 3y ago
        Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well. Then you sit in a cold car freezing your ass off while waiting for it to warm up. On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice. I've been out riding in -42°C (mostly just to prove I could), and at those temperatures I started running into mechanical problems. The metal of different components shrank at different rates, and my fork was binding up in the headtube, and the freewheel loosened off such that the ratchets wouldn't always connect with the pawls, causing slippage.
- hyperbovine 3y ago
  -20C is simply not that common in most populated areas (it’s lower than the average daily winter temp even in somewhere like Novosibirsk) and you can plan around it.
- 8note 3y ago
  If that's the video I'm thinking of, it's referencing Finland, where people bike all year because the bicycle infrastructure is well maintained. Try driving in -20 on unmaintained roads, and you'll find the same thing as your current statement about biking. The temperature is largely unrelated to the infrastructure's useability
  - NorwegianDude 3y ago
    Driving in -20 is good, and often more so if the road has not been salted. Roads are the most slippery around 0 degrees.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sbierwagen 3y ago
I've been a bicycle commuter for 20 years. According to Strava I've logged 800 miles so far this year. And when snow is on the ground, I drive.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- steelframe 3y ago
  I used to do it that way. But then I got narrow studded tires. They cut through the snow down to the surface and then grip it if it's icy. Admittedly not the cheapest type of tire around. Last I checked a good brand name was going for $175 new. I found a "used once" set on eBay for a lot less.
  - skeeter2020 3y ago
    if you want narrow studded bike tires they're nowhere close to that much. A quick search found decent pizza cutters starting as low as $25/each. If you want studded fat bike tires you're gonna spend $400 for a set. The narrow ones are fine for a little wet snow but suck once you get more than a few inches of dry powder or downtown slop. You're way better to go for flotation then.
ekianjo 3y ago
> Winter isn't a legit excuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU when you are 80 years old and frail you'll have to bike too? I do love people who comment by assuming everyone is going to be forever in top health to bike.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- steelframe 3y ago
  The last time I visited Amsterdam, I was surprised by how old a lot of the riders were. That said, when I am pushing 80 years old and if I have health issues, I can imagine that I would want an e-trike. That sort of vehicle solves for the issues of stamina and balance. I don't know that I would ever consider traveling on a micro mobility device to be something I "have" to do. If I ever get to the point that I really can't do it regardless of equipment, I imagine I would feel a sense of loss.
  - ryukafalz 3y ago
    Or a mobility scooter if even an e-trike is too much. Good cycling infrastructure benefits people of widely varying levels of ability: https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo?si=XMhcv3CYFvA83nNV https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo?si=XMhcv3CYFvA83nNV

willio58 3y ago

> Outside of Oslo the infrastructure is built with car reliance deincentivizing cars and incentivizing walking and bikes won’t make much difference. To me this reads like "Cars have won, give up on walking and biking in your cities." That's just not a solution. Just because car lobbyists have successfully ruined nearly all US cities and a good amount of European ones doesn't mean we just sit down and continue to let it happen. I agree public transport is a huge part of the way forward, and I even agree that walking/biking in harsh weather isn't exactly ideal, but we can't let the most simple human ways of existing in cities (walking and biking) go to the wayside just because car companies want us to believe they're bad or unsafe transportation methods. Want to walk in the snow? Put on some boots and wear some layers with a scarf and a hat. Want to walk in the heat? Wear a hat, sunscreen, and a light shirt and pair of shorts. It's not _that_ hard.

timc3 3y ago
Have you been in Norway? The weather can be harsh, the Norwegians are some of the best in dealing with it in the world, but covering large parts of Norway with public transport is difficult. I used to bike in Bergen, Norway in the winter and it can be really dangerous - I saw many accidents even from the locals.
- NorwegianDude 3y ago
  And Bergen has very mild winter compared to the rest of Norway. Rain on the other hand is a different story...
ffhhttt 3y ago
Norway outside of Oslo is largely very mountainous and not very densely populated . Maybe an e-bike could be a reasonable option during summer but you still have the rest of the year.. > It's not _that_ hard. Yes it is, for most people given the condition. Implying that they are too lazy etc. it’s just not helpful. > want us to believe they're bad or unsafe transportation methods Conspiracy theories are generally not that useful. Cars are objectively the superior method of transport in low density areas (there is no use in denying that)
3y ago

SECProto 3y ago

> Instead they should be making public transport more attractive Indeed, and the article itself agrees with you - the headline is deceptive. Without any specifics, the actual quote from the transport minister is about improving intermodal transport, saying "We must make it more attractive to travel by public transport, cycle, and walk."

vintermann 3y ago

Bah, I'm not sure I'd even call Oslo the most walkable city in Norway. It's perfectly possible to live in smaller cities, or even outside cities, without a car. I visited one of the supposedly ugliest cities in Norway this summer, Alta in Finnmark. It got its reputation because appatently during the reconstruction after the war, they couldn't decide which of the small population centres in the municipality they should locate public functions to, so they put them in the middle. So it was an unusually car-centric city. What I found was that this reputation is either grossly exaggerated, or is no longer true. The grid is maybe spacier than we're used to in Norway, but they have a huge pedestrian plaza in the middle and you can walk to anything you'd need in the city centre. They even seem to have great pedestrian/bike paths all the way out to Hjemmeluft, and there was nice public transport. I'd happily live there without a car. Looking at the real estate prices, though, it seems lots of other people are happy to live there too, harsh weather notwithstanding.