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Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)
- anonporridge 3y agoFantastic news! EVs already have escape velocity in Norway to replace ICE cars, and incentivizing more walking and cycling not only promotes more efficient modes of short distance travel, but makes the population healthier. Over reliance on cars kills us slowly via lifestyle degradation.
- datameta 3y agoI believe walking is as important as meditation for self-regulation of organ systems (including brain and heart).
- datameta 3y agoAn addendum: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/feeling-it/201309/20-scientific-reasons-to-start-meditating-today https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/feeling-it/201309/20... https://www.healthline.com/health/benefits-of-walking#energy-boost https://www.healthline.com/health/benefits-of-walking#energy...
- taude 3y agoWhat's weird though, is that we're on average living a lot longer than we were 50 years ago. So how is that slowly killing us? [1] [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/life-expectancy https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/life... I'm guessing it trends similarly for other countries. EDIT: Not that I'm against walking and cycling (I don't own a car). But to say that this is causing less lifespan...
- kiba 3y agoJust because our lifespan is getting longer doesn't mean that something in our society and environment isn't contributing to our premature death. If our lifespan average starts at 30, and then 10 years later, the average becomes 40, doesn't mean we eliminated all factors causing us to live shorter lives.
- sokoloff 3y agoIf in a span of only 10 years the average lifespan rose by 10 years, it means you'd eliminated most of the factors causing the population to live shorter lives.
- anonporridge 3y agoRelatively less than it could be when compared to other countries with less wealth per capita. The US is the wealthiest large country per capita, and yet we aren't the healthiest or longest lived. What's all this wealth for if poorer people are living better and longer lives?
- geraldwhen 3y agoThe US is far more diverse than most other countries. There is no “we” with respect to demographic health data.
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoThis isn’t relevant. Americans die earlier than the British across the entire income distribution, despite earning significantly more on average.
- alwayslikethis 3y agoTraffic accidents are among the top causes of death in the US. Many diseases are also caused by a sedentary lifestyle (not walking enough), among other things caused by the car.
- skeeter2020 3y agodon't disagree but a big part of this is we've gotten so good a preventing a lot of the other causes of death these have increased to fill the gap. Also, I'm definitely not sedentary, but absolutely hate walking. They're not orthogonal.
- wzdd 3y agoA bucket is filling with water at a rate of 3 drops per second. However, the bucket has a hole which is releasing water at a rate of one drop per second. The water level is nonetheless rising. If we plugged the hole, it would rise more rapidly.
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- all2 3y agoHow are the EV battery cells handling the cold? I know from personal experience that a cold battery has much reduced capacity.
- metal_am 3y agoThey’re usually actively heated/cooled
- lb1lf 3y agoIt is my understanding they are insulated and heated/cooled as needed; the performance loss from being cold is much larger than the energy expenditure to heat the cells to an optimum temperature. Around where I live, we have several weeks of -15C - -25C (5F - -13F) every winter. No worries for the EV owners, they just need to charge a bit more often as they need to heat the interior of the car, too... (Not being afforded the dubious luxury of simply utilizing the waste heat from the engine, as I do for the time being in my diesel...)
- vinni2 3y agoOutside of Oslo the infrastructure is built with car reliance deincentivizing cars and incentivizing walking and bikes won’t make much difference. Instead they should be making public transport more attractive. Walking and biking is not exactly ideal in harsh weather.
- anonporridge 3y agoWinter isn't a legit excuse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
- vinni2 3y agoNorway is not Netherlands. Try biking in -20 C and go shopping for a family on a bike. Where I live bike paths are not regularly cleared they can get icy and dangerous. Public transport is the way to go. Biking can complement when and where possible. I say this as a person who commutes to work with bike everyday.
- anonporridge 3y agoIf you watched the video I linked, you would find every point you just made here dismantled.
- vinni2 3y agoI have seen this video and in the examples he gives they clear the bike paths. Where I live when it snows it’s just impossible to bike. In heavy snow it’s like biking on the sand. And sometimes when the temperatures fluctuate there is black ice I have to worry about. Some bike paths get salted but not all so it’s not a safe continuous ride at least for my commute.
- anonporridge 3y agoThe primary point of the video, is that when adequate infrastructure and servicing (plowing and de icing) exists, very cold, harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. In the example city, Oulu Finland, they see a consistent 22% ridership all the way down to -20C, because they incentivize cycling with well designed and maintained infrastructure.
- rickydroll 3y agoit all depends on your lifestyle. A big piece of my reason to live is being able to get out in the woods or get to a dark sky site and sit out under the stars. People crowded places are not good for me from a mental and physical health perspective. Living in or around city spaces raise my blood pressure to unsafe levels. It only takes living a couple weeks in a quiet place to bring my blood pressure come back down to healthy levels. It doesn't matter how much I walk or bike in a city. No amount of exercise or stress management techniques brings my blood pressure back down. I will continue to live at edge of cities because I do need some of the medical services found in them but, living in them, well that's saying I'm ready to die.
- avgcorrection 3y agoEither this article is contentless compared to the press release or the press release itself is just based on platitudes. Don't fucking “incentivize” alternatives to the five-seater. Architecture it. Make more of the urban area car-free.[1] Make other modes of transportation superior except for things like emergency care. Am I holding my breath for cheap bus fares and actual bikelanes? Not exactly. The usual fare is to keep maintaining and upgrading the road network with only automobiles in mind and then act surprised when people keep choosing the mode of transporation that the infrastructure was built around. Cheaper EVs was a nice way to pander to the middle class. There is less of a reason to pander to people who either don't own a car or can't afford the more expensive (at least back then) EVs. That's why there is less of a chance to see cheaper bus fares. > EVs already have escape velocity in Norway to replace ICE cars, and incentivizing more walking and cycling not only promotes more efficient modes of short distance travel, but makes the population healthier. > Over reliance on cars kills us slowly via lifestyle degradation. Many people who work in Oslo can't afford to live in Oslo (I'm sure many can relate). Then they get stuck in traffic for hours a day because many others, you know, live outside of the bikeable/walkable core. Commuting home from perhaps a sedentary job. Then this gets labeled as a matter of lifestyle. What the hell? [1] https://www.oslo.kommune.no/byutvikling/bilfritt-byliv/ https://www.oslo.kommune.no/byutvikling/bilfritt-byliv/
- ambicapter 3y agoIt's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. If the living space is architected the way it is, people will gravitate towards the most convenient method to access it (cars). If you prioritize re-architecting you will find it difficult to move people already invested in the depreciating asset which is their vehicle, out of it. At the same time they won't move out of their car until the other transportation options are, if not equally, at least somewhat close to convenient. So basically you need to tug a little on both sides, have fewer people using cars, then it's easier to make changes that affect those cars in favor of greener transport architecture, cycle and repeat.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y agoAt least in the article, I didn't see anything mentioned about incentivizing cycling or walking (or infrastructure investments to support them). They're simply reducing subsidies to EVs, which will only be slightly less heavily subsidized compared to ICE vehicles. Anyone from Norway know what they're doing for walking and cycling that isn't in the article?
- capableweb 3y ago> Norwegian Transport Minister Jon-Ivar Nygard said in the statement: > "Electric cars give us greener transport, but they also have a clear intermodal competition with public transport in urban areas. We must make it more attractive to travel by public transport, cycle, and walk." I don't find that statement anywhere though, but that's from the article. I think that means they're working on doing something about it, but haven't reached any proposals yet.
- zx8080 3y ago> Anyone from Norway know what they're doing for walking and cycling that isn't in the article? It's not "they", it's winter. If you don't move, you're frozen. And soon dead. So no EV - have to walk. Or cycle. Or public transport.
- kogepathic 3y ago> It's not "they", it's winter. Somehow the residents of Oulu find a way to cycle in winter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU > If you don't move, you're frozen. Good thing cycling and walking involve moving.
- vinni2 3y agoThis is hypocrisy Norwegian economy is heavily driven by oil industry. Instead of planning to phase out oil they just makes these ineffective policies. People are going to buy big electric cars even with VAT.
- chha 3y agoVAT on EVs isn’t the only mechanism, there is also a one-time toll related to vehicle weight in the works.
- vinni2 3y agoI know but people still need cars and they will buy it even if it costs twice as much. When public transportation is not convenient and reliable there is not really much choice.
- rickydroll 3y agopeople will continue to take cars whenever cars are faster than public transit. Compare your travel route options on Google maps. My partner commutes about 20 miles to work and driving takes 45 min to an hour and 1/4 depending on time of day. even though we live a mile and 1/2 from a major train stop, it would take her an 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours to use public transportation to get to work. until public transit fixes the time inefficiency problem, it's fighting an uphill battle.
- melling 3y agoNorway doesn’t decide to phase out oil, consumers do. The world needs 100 million barrels a day. We are at peak coal too. https://www.iea.org/news/global-coal-demand-set-to-remain-at-record-levels-in-2023 https://www.iea.org/news/global-coal-demand-set-to-remain-at...
- vinni2 3y agoThat’s not exactly true. When the Russian gas stopped the adoption of renewables accelerated in Germany and other places in Europe. If oil is phased out people will adapt. Most of Norwegian oil customers are in Europe so switching to renewable energy and phasing out oil is doable. Instead Norway wants to explore oil in the arctic.
- nologic01 3y agoThere is a very clear flow chart * Walk Else * Take Bicycle Else * Take Electric Bike or Fixed Track Public Transport Else * Use Electric Automobile or Bus Else * Use Fossil Fuel Automobile or Airplane Subsidies, incentives etc must align with this flowchart. EV is seen as a savior for economies and urban structures that are not viable to start with
- candiddevmike 3y agoI'd imagine there should be a few more bullet points somehow between automobile and airplane: - Carpool - Bus - Train
- LightBug1 3y ago- Batmobile
- CameronNemo 3y agoIs train not fixed track public transport? And a carpool is still an automobile, just not a personal one.
- local_person 3y ago[dead]
- nologic01 3y agoBus and Train are covered but Carpool is indeed an important arrangement (though not a new transport tech, more a behavioral adaptation). But I think whenever carpooling is effective it probably means even more effective public transport is feasible. E.g. minibuses.
- skeeter2020 3y agoAs someone who loves to bike and hates to walk why would you prioritize one over the other? You're entire prescriptive approach is a big problem in making any improvement. How about "try to do anything other than drive by yourself in your car?"
- vinni2 3y ago> boosting walking and cycling how exactly are they boosting that? They should really be making public transport better and cheaper throughout the country not just Olso.
- TonyStr 3y agoWhich they absolutely are doing, but it's difficult to provide public transport anywhere else than the big cities when only about 2% of Norway is inhabited. The price of public transport is not what's keeping people from using it, but the fact that many people live outside the big cities and have to travel to them for work. Depending on where you live, commuting to the city may be very unwieldy. Oslo has been building out more train tracks recently which make travel time much quicker for a lot of people living outside the city.
- gentleman11 3y agoI can’t even imagine that here where I live. My neighbourhood has sidewalks, which is nice because all the adjacent ones don’t. To go downtown in this little town in winter you have to risk a treacherous steep hill covered in ice and snow that never gets cleared and it’s actually dangerous
- SoftTalker 3y agoYes, it's amazing how bike advocates view the world as a homogenous place. Where I live it's 90 degrees or higher, and humid in the summer, and can be sub-zero in the winter. It's also quite hilly -- flat and level riding is the exception. I'm not riding a bike any substantial distance in those conditions, regardless of paths or lanes.
- kitkat_new 3y agowelcome to (southern) Germany, I recommend you a bike with electric assist and you will be fine
- throw__away7391 3y agoThe real game changer is a helmet with a full face visor. Also I am warmer on a scooter than a bike due to the fact that I'm not moving my legs "pumping" air in and out of my clothes. I found that on an electric scooter with a full helmet I was totally warm at high speed into icy wind coming off the sea. Warmer than say just standing outside for a few minutes with a hat and scarf but my face not covered.
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoDo you mean scooter as a standing one or as motorbike
- throw__away7391 3y agoStanding on one, but really I think the main point is you aren't peddling. My legs would absolutely freeze riding a non-electric bike, each rotation of the peddles as your knee flexes all the warm air is forced out of your pants and then cold air is sucked in as you straighten your leg at the bottom. At least this was the case for me with jeans. I would do ~25mph on a fold-up type scooter in the same weather, just adding the full visor helmet, and didn't feel even slightly cold.
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- Advaith97 3y agoits great that they're incentivising public transport. Does anyone have any numbers comparing carbon emissions from a population using green public transport vs using electric cars vs using gasoline cars?
- jupp0r 3y agoApart from this transitionary period where we still use fossil fuels to produce EVs, it's going to be 0 eventually.
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- jupp0r 3y ago(2022)
- josh_today 3y ago[dead]
- greenthrow 3y agoThis article is from 2022. This is not news as the title implies. Needs [2022].
- janvidar 3y agoThis article is from May 2022.
- ThinkBeat 3y agoI live in Norway now (ex US) (BTW: One of the world's biggest producers of oil and natural gas (fossile fuels)) It is a country with winters filled with slippery ice at least in the south, and lots of steep hills up and down up and down. The ER stats for broken hip bones and other injuries during the winter is high. The ice is a much bigger factor than cold or snow when evaluating walking or biking It is possible to bike all year round. But very few people do it. and I think for good reason. I did it for 2 years and I am never doing it again. Yes you can get studded bike tires and they help but no. Politicians here keep talking about Norway as if we are Spain. (With enough global warming from the fossile fuels produced perhaps?) Let us be good for the environment and walk and bike everywhere. Like they do in Amsterdam. Meanwhile public transit in Oslo is good, and well used. But the buses and trains are stuffed like sardins in a can. during rush hours. I wish they would stop spending major money on constructing bike paths and allocating more and more of the road to bikes, and instead invest heavily in improving and expanding public transit. Since it is useful for nearly all of the population all year around. Since Norway is investing heavily in EV busses, the trains are electric as are the trams, increasing the number of busses, allowing people to breathe in rush hour would not have any noticeable impact on emissions. I would rather see many more lanes for public transit only than the same space being built for bikes only. With a population of 700.000, the capital Oslo, seems at most 3.000 brave bikers during the winter. (less than 0.5%) This is easy to calculate since the city have signs that measure the number of bikers that pass them 24h a day. There is a Finish town that the newspapers like to cover in how people ride their bikes there all year around. Joensuu. ""Meet the bike-loving Finnish city that keeps pedaling even in the snow"" It is blessed by being flat, by having a youngish population, and a consistently below freezing winter. (Which means much less of an ice problem). Even there only 7% ride their bikes in the winter. Since Oslo will remain outstandingly non flat, and be covered in ice during good parts of the winter, I dont see the advantage of spending on bike infrastructure over public transit. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-loving-finnish-city-that-keeps-pedalling-even-in-the-snow https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/feb/08/why-finland-leads-the-field-when-it-comes-to-winter-cycling https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/feb/0...
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- zzzbra 3y agoI feel like we're going to look back on the past ten years of EV hype the same way we look at the big tech/social media rise of the obama years -- why were we so completely in the throes of this silver bullet, seeing no downsides to a different set of trade offs...
- CatWChainsaw 3y agoCertainly, there can't possibly be downsides to replacing mechanical bits with electronics that are fragile in their own ways and harder if not impossible to repair, also the batteries will make cars much heavier, the momentum that much deadlier, that damage greater and more expensive, not to mention the extreme computerization that's already reached the front page here recently regarding how much data car manufacturers and dealers collect and their inevitable attempt to milk another cash cow by moving from car ownership to car rentership. Me and my smug "Told you" will be waiting.
- onthecanposting 3y agoI get the sneaking suspicion this is part of a ratcheting strategy for state prohibition of private ownership of any means of transportation for common people. Calling these policies sumptuary laws probably wouldn't fly nowadays I suppose.