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I understand the idea behind this page (and I really liked it), but the title made me think of more a "philosophical" question... do any webpage exists if nobod

by 101008 3y ago

I understand the idea behind this page (and I really liked it), but the title made me think of more a "philosophical" question... do any webpage exists if nobody visits it? If the page is a static HTML you could say that yes, it exists in the webserver as a file. But what about dynamic webpages. The frontpage of New York Times (I guess it is generated dynamically from a database)... does it exists if no one access NYT? Do any dynamic webpage exists if no one requests it? Being available and ready to be requested doesn't mean the webpage exists... does it?

stronglikedan 3y ago
Only the route exists until visited. Only then does the page exist.
MR4D 3y ago
FTA - Your browser retrieved it from the browser of someone currently viewing this page. You're now a part of the network and someone who loads this page in the future may get it from you!
- developer93 3y ago
  They read the article, they were making a different related point
- echelon 3y ago
  If it passes over a central server, does it really count as p2p? If browsers grew p2p capabilities [1], we could begin to bypass centralization and build truly distributed (not just federated) social networks, news systems, and the like. Imagine not having to run "archive.is" against headlines. You just share them - tamperlessly - with others. And the comment graph. You could even begin to boost high-value content with your own algorithm that you control. P2P in browsers would return us to where many of us thought the internet would lead us in the early 00's. The disappearance of bittorrent and arrival of central platforms like Facebook felt like the future faded away and disappeared. People are using Discord now, but in the 00's people used completely customizable open source clients to connect to their favorite messaging platforms. You can't even imagine that today. Everything is a platform. [1] I doubt Google would ever get behind this. Centralization reinforces their ads business.
  - NooneAtAll3 3y ago
    > If it passes over a central server, does it really count as p2p? you made me realize that this website is essentially torrent (without splitting file into chunks)
    - Eduard 3y ago
      >> If it passes over a central server, does it really count as p2p? > you made me realize that this website is essentially torrent how did you come to your conclusion, given that statement? With Torrent, content flows between peers directly. Whereas for this website, content flows between peers with the central server in between.
  - kurisufag 3y ago
    > You can't even imagine that today Matrix? and to a significantly lesser extent Telegram.
  - throwitaway156 3y ago
    Ignoring STUN/TURN, WebRTC should be able to do this. there are things like webtorrent.io All we need is demand. Demand for non-walled garden content. Demand for less monthly subscriptions to be able to run something you already own. Demand for DRM-free content that you can share with your grandma or watch on a seperate device on a flight.
- 101008 3y ago
  Yes, I read the article, I was asking a different question.
comprev 3y ago
A building does not exist until the materials sitting at the site are assembled. Same principle applies to dynamic webpages.
- 101008 3y ago
  But what if the materials are assembled "automatically" every time someone tries to enter the building :D
  - comprev 3y ago
    Same situation as before, the materials remain as they were until an external influence triggers the "build". A dynamic page is not assembled until the HTTP request (i.e external) sets things in motion.
Zandikar 3y ago
> Do any dynamic webpage exists if no one requests it Matter of perspective/semantics. A more general thought experiment in the same vein: Can you stand in the same river twice? To answer the question: "does it [exist]?" you have to first define what a "it" (a dynamic webpage) is. My answer in response is "Is it cached?" if no, then no. Whether or not a person is involved at all is irrelevant imo. But I define a dynamic webpage by the existance of the DOM, not the services that generate it. I might make an exception if it can be proven those services are deterministic, which I wouldn't assume.

by 101008 3y ago

stronglikedan 3y ago

Only the route exists until visited. Only then does the page exist.

MR4D 3y ago

FTA - Your browser retrieved it from the browser of someone currently viewing this page. You're now a part of the network and someone who loads this page in the future may get it from you!

developer93 3y ago
They read the article, they were making a different related point
echelon 3y ago
If it passes over a central server, does it really count as p2p? If browsers grew p2p capabilities [1], we could begin to bypass centralization and build truly distributed (not just federated) social networks, news systems, and the like. Imagine not having to run "archive.is" against headlines. You just share them - tamperlessly - with others. And the comment graph. You could even begin to boost high-value content with your own algorithm that you control. P2P in browsers would return us to where many of us thought the internet would lead us in the early 00's. The disappearance of bittorrent and arrival of central platforms like Facebook felt like the future faded away and disappeared. People are using Discord now, but in the 00's people used completely customizable open source clients to connect to their favorite messaging platforms. You can't even imagine that today. Everything is a platform. [1] I doubt Google would ever get behind this. Centralization reinforces their ads business.
- NooneAtAll3 3y ago
  > If it passes over a central server, does it really count as p2p? you made me realize that this website is essentially torrent (without splitting file into chunks)
  - Eduard 3y ago
    >> If it passes over a central server, does it really count as p2p? > you made me realize that this website is essentially torrent how did you come to your conclusion, given that statement? With Torrent, content flows between peers directly. Whereas for this website, content flows between peers with the central server in between.
- kurisufag 3y ago
  > You can't even imagine that today Matrix? and to a significantly lesser extent Telegram.
- throwitaway156 3y ago
  Ignoring STUN/TURN, WebRTC should be able to do this. there are things like webtorrent.io All we need is demand. Demand for non-walled garden content. Demand for less monthly subscriptions to be able to run something you already own. Demand for DRM-free content that you can share with your grandma or watch on a seperate device on a flight.
101008 3y ago
Yes, I read the article, I was asking a different question.

comprev 3y ago

A building does not exist until the materials sitting at the site are assembled. Same principle applies to dynamic webpages.

101008 3y ago
But what if the materials are assembled "automatically" every time someone tries to enter the building :D
- comprev 3y ago
  Same situation as before, the materials remain as they were until an external influence triggers the "build". A dynamic page is not assembled until the HTTP request (i.e external) sets things in motion.

Zandikar 3y ago

> Do any dynamic webpage exists if no one requests it Matter of perspective/semantics. A more general thought experiment in the same vein: Can you stand in the same river twice? To answer the question: "does it [exist]?" you have to first define what a "it" (a dynamic webpage) is. My answer in response is "Is it cached?" if no, then no. Whether or not a person is involved at all is irrelevant imo. But I define a dynamic webpage by the existance of the DOM, not the services that generate it. I might make an exception if it can be proven those services are deterministic, which I wouldn't assume.